Natural Horsemanship... grrr! *Rant, sorry*

Agreed.

or what they should put up with or what their horse should be exposed to, in a public stable.

By the same token, when it’s public property you have little say as to what goes on, within reason.

There is no difference between dangerous and ‘mildly upsetting’ the horse; you have no idea when the latter will evolve into the former. It is not anyone’s business to foist their riding style on anyone else.

So do you tell the garbage man not to sling the metal trashcans around? Do you tell the guy whose truck backfires down the road every day that he’s a danger to you? Do you tell the hot air balloon people they shouldn’t fly their balloons within site of your farm?

This isn’t about a riding style.

I already took my pony out of one boarding barn because an NHie took it upon himself to go into his stall and ‘train’ him. It is not anyone else’s decision; leave other people and their horses alone.

I’d have done the same thing. But just because a “NH’er” (and I put quotes around that because no REAL NH’er would do that) did this doesn’t mean there aren’t other know-it-alls who would and have done that, because there are.

This thread should NEVER have been about NH. It shouldn’t have been about “that Dressage person” or “that barrel racer”. It should have been just about the incidents.

It’s no different from this scenario, which several folks on this thread attacked the OP for: at least one thread on the H/J forum, maybe not recently but in the farther past, made comments about something negative someone did, and made a point to indicate they were “Mexican help”. Some folks went OFF on the OP for their racial implication.

This OP is no different. It’s “racially” implying that the undesirable actions were limited to “those NH folks”.

No, actually, there is a particular problem with Natural horsemanship, it attracts far more slavish and far rigider and more insistent and arrogant culties than any other type of riding, they are far more ready to decide what other people’s horses should be subjected to, far more likely to feel it is their god given right to foist it on other poeople’s horses, and far more likely to spend pages and pages trying to convince everyone that NH is great and everyone who ain’t drunk the coolaid is all wrong about it, and NH is what they need and yadda yadda yadda. Natural horsemanship is a cult religion, other types of riding are fei or usef divisions or classes at horse shows.

You’re right, NH is entirely a world of its own and no other discipline or other discipline’s individual could possibly be as bad or worse.

[QUOTE=slc2;4227136]
No one has any right to decide how someone should ride or what they should put up with or what their horse should be exposed to, in a public stable.

There is no difference between dangerous and ‘mildly upsetting’ the horse; you have no idea when the latter will evolve into the former. It is not anyone’s business to foist their riding style on anyone else. [/QUOTE]

You make it sound completely black and white – like it is written in stone what is/is not acceptable! Everyone draws the line in a different place.

For example, I’m riding my four year old, and a fellow boarder is training her 4 year old. Should I avoid riding in the arena with her so as to not upset her baby? Or should she not be getting her horse used to a saddle in the arena (i.e., flapping the fenders around on the saddle, making jiggle noises with the saddle, etc) lest she spook my horse?

What if neither of us are natural-horsemanship people?

What if both of us are?

What if one is and one isn’t?

Or maybe we both assume what we are doing is not bothering the other and unless someone says something we will continue what we’re doing?

I think it’s fairly self explanatory. If you’re the minority opinion, move to another barn where what you want to do is normal and everyone else is comfortable with it.

What is customary at that barn, what the horses and riders are used to and accept, what people ddon’t go running to the manager or complaining to each other about, what doesn’t disrupt the people at the barn, what the manager allows (unless s/he thinks s/he has the right to scare the snot out of the boarders). If there is a whole arena full of handicapped riders with severe balance and strength issues, you behave a little differently than if you are in an arena full of jockeys exercising race horses.

Id someone is in the ring with a skittish young horse, YES, in some cases, if she’s having a really hard time, and it would make a difference, and you can see the rider is getting more and more frantic and afraid because of what you’re doing, DO let her have the ring! You’re at a public riding stable for ordinary people, not the Olympics, grow up. YES they can’t ride, YES they can’t train their horses, welcome to reality. It’s not your job to tell them what to do or to try to make them put up with your ‘philosophy’.

Was at a barn where one of the riders, an older lady, would get absolutely petrified if someone rolled open the big sliding doors at one end of the ring. So? Lecture, force her to freak out to ‘teach her a lesson’ or ‘toughen her up’? No, she was never going to toughen up. Actually, it’s very simple, don’t open the doors while she’s in the ring, she rode for 15 whole frikkin minutes.

Was at a barn where people jumped a lane set in off the track and horses had to go around either side. SOme horses were fine, others freaked out. What to do, what to do? Maybe common decency. Let the riders who it bothered, know when the jumping lessons would be. Ask the riders who are bothered by it if a schedule can be worked out. Maybe the manager tells them they can’t set up a lane in the indoor arena! The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. They put a jump lane out in the jumping ring, maybe, or maybe they even wait til summer when they can set it up outside.

Was at a barn where the mere tidbit of information that I had a rescue pony, without it actually ever doing a single thing except trot quickly on the longe line with its little eyes showing the white, scared the crap out of a local gal who obviously didn’t like being in the ring with the pony. ‘Is he…is he going to get excited? I don’t want him to get my horse excited, I have to go to a horse show and I don’t have time to work my horse down…’ Forget the preachin’, forget the self righteous better-than-thou, for the fifteen minutes that she is going to ride, guess what! I can lead my pony in hand. No one is inconvenienced, no one is forced to handle something they don’t want to handle, and I get more time with my pony.

Was at a barn where my very quiet young warmblood scooted one step when a horse fell in the barn aisle, the elderly lady riding in the ring with me didn’t say a word, but she immediately dismounted and scurried out of the ring. YOu don’t have to be told, you don’t have to get in a fight with that lady, let her have the ring if she’s getting off and running away every time you tack up! For heaven’s sake, most of these people ride for 10 minutes! Yeah! LET 'em have the ring!

You will never, ever make all people agree with what you think is right. More important to work out something that works for all concerned.

The examples of the riders out swinging ropes and bag poppers is ridiculous. It doesn’t matter where exactly they were standing. It’s inconsiderate; horses often are far more excited by something they can barely hear or see from a distance anyway.

Just remember - you are not in charge of what scares other people or other people’s horses, and you can’t guarantee they won’t be hurt because of what you do, and the bottom line is in a public barn, it isn’t your business to decide what people should tolerate; instead, accomodate.

“A real NH’er wouldn’t”

[B]Actually the entire cultishness of the thing makes it far more likely a real NH’er would, the entire basis of NH is that they have discovered THE way, and it is better than everything else and transcends ALL riding styles, and this leads to an IMMENSE amount of prosteletizing.

For example, I have never in my entire life had a hunter rider accost me while I was eating in a public restaurant, and tell me I MUST go to a hunter clinic. I have never had a polo rider, or a jumper rider, or a western pleasure rider, or ANY other kind of rider, get up in my face and tell me how wrong everyone else is, tha thtey have all the answers from on high, and if I don’t drink the coolaid, I’m going to ruin my horse and well, just be doing everything so wrong, and this has in fact happened repeatedly to me over the years, and ONLY from NH folks. No other sort of rider has EVER gone in my horse’s stall at a public riding facility and taken it upon himself to ‘train’ my horse for me, without my permission, either.[/B].

I’ver never EVER had any OTHER sort of rider get in the stall with my horse, chase it around, lay on it, slap it, shake stuff at it, slap it more, and tell me how great all that crap is for an abused, terrified pony who is sweating, neck and back muscles rigid and trembling, literally shitting himself, climbing the wall in terror and does same every time he even catches a scent of the person and required two years of very gentle, quiet desnsitization, not the rough housing and abuse they think is desnsitization.

And the bottom line is,[I] it ain’t your horse and it’s not your job to decide how to train it, whether to crawl in its stall or to even get up in my face and tell me what’s good for it. It is my pony, I will desensitize it my way on my schedule. And said pony will stand for all sorts of ropes, harness and jumk tossed at it or on it now, AFTER months of undoing the damage the NH’er did.

By GOD are these people self righteous and pushy and arrogant. It’s one thing to pronounce the joys of NH on a bulletin board, quite another mindset to go into someone’s horse’s stall without their permission and proceed to terrify the crap out of it. [/I]

The very rigidity of thinking leads them to use desnsitization so arbitrarily, so unskillfully, and so ineffectively. The methods have even been compared and measured, and the NH way is so stressful for the animal biologically that there is no comparison. I watched the colt starting competition with absolute disbelief, it’s only drinking the purple coolaid that could make people believe it is good for horses - any of it.

So do you tell the garbage man not to sling the metal trashcans around? Do you tell the guy whose truck backfires down the road every day that he’s a danger to you? Do you tell the hot air balloon people they shouldn’t fly their balloons within site of your farm?

There are some fundamental differences here. THE TRAINING ARENA should be a fairly controlled environment, because horses and people need a safe place to learn.

Horses and riders who are further along in their training will be getting ready to face these types of things at shows. They don’t just throw the horses in the deep end.

We expect our arenas to be quiet. When horses are ready, then they are ridden out in more dangerous venues, but not before. So, no, I have the good sense not to work the young/green horses and riders where any of the things above could happen. Still, things happen.

One of the examples was a horse running in the field when someone was waving their wand, then the owners were criticized because their horse wasn’t “desensitized”. In a field situation, horses are supposed to run from a threat. They are being horses.

I read that a particular Natural Horseman hired a marketing promoter whose specialty was the study of cults. They then devised entire propanda and promotions around creating a cult appeal. One of the biggest tools in creating cults (I read the book just for grins) is to create a doubt in the follower’s mind–what you have been doing is wrong, what others are doing is wrong. Once the question is created, then the cult leader supplies the answer: there is one right way to do things, MY way. Once the follower buys into the answer, they are expected to create the same doubt in others and then supply the answer, in a bandwagon fallacy. I do see this trickle down effect in many NHers.

Exactly. The whole psychology of cults is very well understood and documented very carefully and clearly. It’s a very good idea to read up on it. I have a book that sounds similar called ‘The Psychology of Cults’ and another good one called ‘The Psychology of Political Control’, and books on ISKON that cover the same material.

To be perfectly honest, I read the book looking for marketing ideas. But, then I read what it does to people and how it brings them down. It makes them question themselves so they are no longer empowered to find their own answers. Then they have to seek a higher power and a leader to give them the answers. Icky negativity and manipulation based on fear. It was the reason Linda Parelli was once so big on bashing dressage, creating doubts in the minds of riders whether they were on the right path or should be following Pat. Of all the Parelli sins, this mind game is the one I find completely unforgivable, the deliberate negative spinning of anything except Pat and the attempt to lead people by bringing them down. If you have to resort to fear based mind games, you are no leader of humans or of horses. It made me look a lot closer at some of their horse “games.”

In fact I feel all the games are human psychology, rather than anything to do with training horses.

slc, I’m sorry, but that just proves you do not understand the point of the games, which is the source of many of your comments about NH. Don’t worry though, you are not alone.

THIS is a hoot!!!

Now this is a natural horseman I could watch and learn from, along with some horsey friends and a couple bottles of wine! :lol::lol::lol::winkgrin::yes::yes:

Sign me UP! Thanks for sharing him, he’s adorable!

No, it doesn’t prove that at all. It proves I don’t care for them, and don’t believe they are effective or efficient use of my time. Just because I don’t see it the same way as you don’t mean I don’t ‘understand’ or am ignorant moron, I’ve been all thru the games several times, and I don’t care for them; I think they are a pointless waste of time and that alll the claims made for them are absurd and part of the cult psychology, and that the puported goals can be reached far more simply by very traditional, ordinary methods. And that’s ok for me to think that! I’m allowed, without the accusations that I ‘just don’t understand’ or worse! Your cult psychology has gone a wee bit too far already! :lol:


heard at the Paris Fashion show: “VEILS! I WANT VEILS!”

It was the reason Linda Parelli was once so big on bashing dressage, creating doubts in the minds of riders whether they were on the right path or should be following Pat. Of all the Parelli sins, this mind game is the one I find completely unforgivable, the deliberate negative spinning of anything except Pat and the attempt to lead people by bringing them down. If you have to resort to fear based mind games, you are no leader of humans or of horses. It made me look a lot closer at some of their horse “games.”

AMEN…I so agree with you here. I learned in Psych 1 that a person with low self esteem will trash others in order to make themselves look better in others eyes. Sound like anyone here???:winkgrin:
And now she is riding with WAZ?? And wonders why the dressage world isn’t happy. someone needs a reality slap.

Those dollars make some strange bedfellows.:lol:

[QUOTE=MassageLady;4227906]
AMEN I learned in Psych 1 that a person with low self esteem will trash others in order to make themselves look better in others eyes. Sound like anyone here???:winkgrin: … someone needs a reality slap.[/QUOTE]

yeah, sounds familiar and like most cliches taught in psych 101, not a good maxim to judge others by because its not always (or even usually) the motivation for a slapdown. Especially on these forums.

sounds like someone has a lot in common with the group she doesn’t like.

Most of the standard performance disciplines are up front saying it will take years for you to learn this sport.

The marketing geniuses behind some programs of NH, promise results in a short time, which appeals to a very large group of horse faddists- the same folks who take a weekend scuba course , learn japanese in a week from a CD and lose 30 lbs on a 90 day exercise program. Promises of quick results sell.

The fact that these same folks then like to show off their newfound skills in inappropriate ways that make us all laugh and rant and tear our hair out is not because the program of NH itself is at fault.

Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
But if someone approaches you with a carrot stick, beat them with it.

slc, I’m sorry, but that just proves you do not understand the point of the games, which is the source of many of your comments about NH. Don’t worry though, you are not alone.

Now, I’m not going after person who made this comment because I don’t really know the person, but this is a perfect example of the propanda that is passed along.

you do not understand the point of the games
You should be feeling doubt now. “Gee, I thought I understood the games. Maybe I don’t! Maybe I don’t know what I don’t know.”

Don’t worry though, you are not alone.
You should be feeling fear now. "Oh, no. Everyone who agrees with me is wrong! Maybe there are a lot of us who are really missing something. I’m scared. If we are all wrong, someone else must be right. Who could it be?

Very tricky business. Very good business, just not very good ethics.

In fact I feel all the games are human psychology, rather than anything to do with training horses.

Can you elaborate here?

If you agree with Cesar Milan, and other people who have the “dominance” and herd dynamics theory of training. Maybe you should read this, have a look at other side. Don’t just jump to conclusions on a theory because it sounds good and its endorsed by someone on the TV.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

You may also find this link to the official AVSAB position dominance theory interesting:
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf

Feel free to “go after me” :wink:

I stand by my comment. slc made the comment that the PNH games are only about human psychology and have nothing to do with training a horse.

That is just flat out wrong. I’m sorry, but it is.

Just because you/someone don’t call what you do to teach a horse to get out of your space or lower his head to accept the bridle or move off your leg to do a leg yield or side pass or back up because there isn’t room to go (safely) forward the same thing as the PNH games doesn’t make them different.

Are they ALSO about human psychology? Yes. But so is any good training that teaches the human to look at things objectively and without frustration or anger.

Is there a problem with the cult mentality. Absolutely!

I don’t care if you like Pat or PNH or any NH at all. It doesn’t matter because what you do as a good trainer is still the same stuff, just in your package.

Buy a metal saddle rack or make one out of wood, the point is the same though the method is different, but don’t bash someone because they chose to make theirs out of scrap wood, and don’t bash someone because they chose to buy what someone else already made. Just because you don’t understand how to make and mount a wooden saddle rack doesn’t make its value any less or make it wrong.

Just because you don’t understand how to make and mount a wooden saddle rack doesn’t make its value any less or make it wrong.

That is the point exactly. Perhaps the others DO know how to make and mount a wooden saddle rack, but choose not to. Yet they are devalued and told they are wrong.


Just go to Parelli.com and poke around. It speaks for itself.