Umm. OK. That’s dogs. This is a horse forum, last I looked.
Oh, and TMI.
[QUOTE=Beasmom;4233976]
That horse has a kinda “WTF” look on its face…[/QUOTE]
Wondering if he’s next to be stuffed!
[QUOTE=Beasmom;4234174]
Umm. OK. That’s dogs. This is a horse forum, last I looked.
Oh, and TMI.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I forget we live in a text message, sound bite society. No one wants to learn anything unless it can be said in a few sentences. And really? You can’t see how these theories apply to all animals? I guess some people will only change their methods if we do long scientific studies on their species… no… their breed… no… their lineage… nope only convinced if its their specific horse!!:no:
No, it’s a huge-asp article that one should only have been able to read if you were a registered member, and on a forum it’s generally poor etiquette, regardless of being allowed to copy the article, to post something THAT long. Post the link instead
And really? You can’t see how these theories apply to all animals?
All animals?
I guess some people will only change their methods if we do long scientific studies on their species… no… their breed… no… their lineage… nope only convinced if its their specific horse!!:no:
A horse is a prey animal. A dog is a predator. That right there makes their mentality very different, therefore training methods can be very different.
:lol:
I was told that a LOT of horses who are “up there” in Trail, were jumping all over the place at some of the things they encountered in this class, because things were moving, things weren’t looking nice and tame like they should have been, and things were just weird. I say bravo for that show for making a Trail class something with interest!
I’m not a horse, I don’t want to be seen by my horses as another horse, I don’t want them to treat me the way they’d treat a herd member. That’s a recipe for disaster and injury IMO.
I also don’t want them to fear me, but damned straight I want them to respect me and respect my space! Here’s a scenario - I’m out in the field looking over my guys who live out 24/7. Everyone gets a once-over and some skritchin’. The top horse in the pecking order decides he needs to see if I’ve got something he wants, so he wanders over, and the lower pecking order horses move out of his way. Now, he’s kind of a bully, and sometimes will go after the shy one just 'cuz.
If Head Honcho wants to make a dive at Timid I:
-
want Timid to be conscious of me and NOT run me over as he makes his escape
-
want Honcho to NOT practice his bullying ways when I’m in the vicinity, because I’M the Boss B**ch mare when I’m out there, and I’ve got a very wide personal space.
That doesn’t mean I take a 2 x 4 out there and slap Honcho around, but I make it VERY clear to them what’s acceptable behavior and what isn’t. Corrections are loud, fast, and as sharp as necessary to get my point across, and then it’s done.
I don’t practice NH, I teach and train my horses as individuals. Some need firmer handling than others, some need time and quiet work, some are born broke and are just looking for the next challenge, or the next chance to snooze.
One size fits all training of ANY kind is doomed to fail.
Bingo Saje!
You don’t want them to treat you as the low man in the herd, but you darn sure ought to want him to treat you as the top man in the herd 
I also don’t want them to fear me, but damned straight I want them to respect me and respect my space!
Sounds like a lower horse treating a higher horse, with respect, yet not afraid to engage in mutual grooming or fly swishing.
Here’s a scenario - I’m out in the field looking over my guys who live out 24/7. Everyone gets a once-over and some skritchin’. The top horse in the pecking order decides he needs to see if I’ve got something he wants, so he wanders over, and the lower pecking order horses move out of his way. Now, he’s kind of a bully, and sometimes will go after the shy one just 'cuz.
If Head Honcho wants to make a dive at Timid I:
- want Timid to be conscious of me and NOT run me over as he makes his escape
Just like Timid would be conscious of another horse higher than him and not run into him
- want Honcho to NOT practice his bullying ways when I’m in the vicinity, because I’M the Boss B**ch mare when I’m out there, and I’ve got a very wide personal space.
Just like Honcho would not be allowed to bully the top dog horse.
That doesn’t mean I take a 2 x 4 out there and slap Honcho around, but I make it VERY clear to them what’s acceptable behavior and what isn’t. Corrections are loud, fast, and as sharp as necessary to get my point across, and then it’s done.
Just like the top dog horse would kick or bite Honcho if he overstepped his boundaries.
I don’t practice NH, I teach and train my horses as individuals. Some need firmer handling than others, some need time and quiet work, some are born broke and are just looking for the next challenge, or the next chance to snooze.
That doesn’t have to be NH, that’s just good training.
One size fits all training of ANY kind is doomed to fail.
nobody here is saying otherwise
I don’t have time to go find the exact quotes at the moment, but there were comments here about not dominating or being dominant, and about being seen as a herd member (as a good thing, in relating to your horse). I’ll never be fluent in horse communication, and they’ll never be fluent in human communication, the best we can hope for is a happy medium and the fewest possible miscommunications.
My take on the whole NH thing, as well as some training philosophies in the dressage and jumper worlds (and probably every other discipline out there), is that they DO promote a “this is the way it must be done, step by step, exactly, and it’s the only way and anyone who says different is wrong” attitude. Thus my one size fits all comment.
ETA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by [B]saje[/B]
I'm not a horse, I don't want to be seen by my horses as another horse, I don't want them to treat me the way they'd treat a herd member. That's a recipe for disaster and injury IMO.
You don’t want them to treat you as the low man in the herd, but you darn sure ought to want him to treat you as the top man in the herd
No, I want them to treat me as the human in the mix, a different species with a different way of communicating, but deserving of MORE respect than the herd leader gets, never ever to be challenged. Because hierarchies DO change w/in a herd, I cannot BE part of the herd - my status must never ever be challenged.
I agree. The really, really good trainers are very fluent in Horse, and they use that to bridge the gap between what the horse would like to do, and what we need/want them to do, so that the horse is a happy, willing, well-adjusted partner in our lives.
My take on the whole NH thing, as well as some training philosophies in the dressage and jumper worlds (and probably every other discipline out there), is that they DO promote a “this is the way it must be done, step by step, exactly, and it’s the only way and anyone who says different is wrong” attitude. Thus my one size fits all comment.
Sure, there are always individuals in any discipline, in any area of life in general, that feel their way is the best and only way. Shame on them.
ETA:
No, I want them to treat me as the human in the mix, a different species with a different way of communicating, but deserving of MORE respect than the herd leader gets, never ever to be challenged. Because hierarchies DO change w/in a herd, I cannot BE part of the herd - my status must never ever be challenged.
Some horses will always have a little bit of challenge in them, even if it’s only that they see how far they can creep into your space and nibble your clothes, only to be told “yeah, right buddy, I don’t THINK so”, but then in 6 months or 2 years they’ll try a little sneak again. Some are told once “don’t challenge me again” and never even think about doing it again.
It’s so much easier on the other side if you talk to them in their language first. If you are trying to teach a Chinese person English, it is to everyone’s benefit if you learn Chinese first. That bridges the gap more effectively.
You really don’t want the horse to treat you as a human, you want them to treat you as the alpha mare of your 2-being herd. That is what they understand, that is what they will revert to in times of stress.
Being treated like another horse doesn’t mean you get walked over. Being treated like a lower horse, a lower being in general, means you get walked over. You want to be treated like the highest of the high, and you get that, without fear, by treating them and communicating to them as a horse.
Like it or not you ARE part of your 2-being herd, you and the horse, because that’s how the horse thinks. You can want him to see you as “human” all you want, but he really sees you as another creature to be feared, respected, accepted, interesting to be with, annoying to be with, trusted, or some combination of those. It’s your goal to be the highest of the high in your herd, with any horse.
Passive leadership
Re Alpha dominance and horses:
http://www.markrashid.com/passive_leadership.htm
I really like Mark Rashid and his books. He does NOT present himself as an “NH” guru of any sort and sells no “special equipment” etc.
Secondly, re PP games. I think the big problem is that the cultists think that a clinic or two and a DVD and they’re good to go. Unfortunately, the clinics do not teach them how to “read” the horse’s reactions (as PP reads the horses, as an experienced horseman) and respond accordingly. Most of the PP people I know just go through the games/motions, regardless of the horse’s reactions, not understanding completely how they need to read the horse - something generally gained only by experience. Ergo, all the non-riders.
As for the old business about “well, it’s good if only because it teachs a kinder gentler way,” I really doubt very many beginner riders were going to “bust” their horses the “old fashioned way.” I really get worried about the PP program encouraging people to get young and/or spoiled horses and “learning together,” rather than the more appropriate schoolmaster horse in whatever discipline.
Some of PP’s stuff is interesting - another tool for a trainer to use - but it is not the be all/end all, nor is the only way. I agree that skilled PP types can do good things, but really, it’s only good old commonsense basic horsemanship repackaged and remarketed with trademarkable names (no fools, PP and LP). It is basic horsemanship and says little about moving the horse on and specializing in a particular discipline. You can round pen forever, but it ain’t gonna improve the horse’s piaffe or teach it to jump a triple combination.
Well said Sandy M!
Love his books 
Most of the PP people I know just go through the games/motions, regardless of the horse’s reactions, not understanding completely how they need to read the horse - something generally gained only by experience. Ergo, all the non-riders.
Agree, and this applies across the board. People “riding” dressage who pull the horse’s face in because that’s the look they think they are trying to emulate, having no idea how the real riders got there. Hunter “riders” throwing themelves on their horse’s necks because they saw a Pro do it. Barrel racing “riders” who gun their horses to a barrel and crank his face around it because that’s what they think they see the good ones doing. Anyone who tries to mimic what they see is often clueless as to what the look is supposed to mean.,
I really get worried about the PP program encouraging people to get young and/or spoiled horses and “learning together,” rather than the more appropriate schoolmaster horse in whatever discipline.
If anyone pays any attention to any PP video, they would see that Pat and Linda frequently tell people to NOT make their first Levels horse a problem or young horse. It’s a frequent disclaimer, and hardly their fault if people ignore the warnings and suggestions and do stupid things anyway
Some of PP’s stuff is interesting - another tool for a trainer to use - but it is not the be all/end all, nor is the only way. I agree that skilled PP types can do good things, but really, it’s only good old commonsense basic horsemanship repackaged and remarketed with trademarkable names (no fools, PP and LP). It is basic horsemanship and says little about moving the horse on and specializing in a particular discipline. You can round pen forever, but it ain’t gonna improve the horse’s piaffe or teach it to jump a triple combination.
Agreed, it’s a tool that nobody on this thread thinks is the Bible, not even close
But to be clear, it is NOT a “discipline” way of training. It is a basic training program (for the horse at least, and often for the human as well). It is not, never was, never claimed to be, a Hunter or Dressage or WP or Barrel Racing training program.
[QUOTE=JB;4235615]
Love his books
But to be clear, it is NOT a “discipline” way of training. It is a basic training program (for the horse at least, and often for the human as well). It is not, never was, never claimed to be, a Hunter or Dressage or WP or Barrel Racing training program.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, and I did not imply or mean to imply that it was a “discipline,” BUT… because of that, it ill behooves PP, and LP in particular, to dis other disciplines. The rest of us don’t like PP cultists calling us abusers because we “do dressage.” Bad riders/trainers in all disciplines? Absolutely. But what PP puts forth is basic training to move on from… and too many PP followers DON’T move on. They make PP’s games an end in themselves, and denigrate people who do move on as ignorant, ill informed or outright abusers. And please, not the “no true PP person would do that.” If that is the case, then PP has created a lot more “false” Parellites than actualy users of his methods. ROFLOL
Frankly, if a beginner gets a well schooled horse to learn on, and some supervision from a decent trainer, I don’t see the point of taking the horse all the way back to kindergarten. One could say in order to let the beginner know the basics, but the game playing and such seem pointless (and even confusing) for a well schooled older horse. I’d recommended the Pony Club Manual before PP. ;0)
Just a note: Despite the fact that “the basics” are useful for all horses, there does seem to be a western bias contained within PP. A friend did basic Parelli work with her horse under the supervision of a Parelli certified trainer. Eventually, she had to say, “no mas” because he horse was destined for dressage (and trail riding) and she did not want the horse backed off the bit, which the certified PP trainer was proceeding to do.
Trying to figure out what state of mine would make THIS SEEM SO HYSTERICALLY FUNNY!!!:
"Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply it is a ‘discipline’ "
[QUOTE=slc2;4235751]
Trying to figure out what state of mine would make THIS SEEM SO HYSTERICALLY FUNNY!!!:
"Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply it is a ‘discipline’ "[/QUOTE]
Perhaps soon we will have Parelli Game Shows (on the Game Show Network, perhaps?)
Just occured to me: Why does one NEED a “levels” horse? The choice to me would seem to be either a greenie, a spoiled horse, a good horse with SOME experience, or a very experienced horse (schoolmaster). It is ill-advised for a beginner to take on a greenie or a spoiled horse, most horses that have some experience can probably move on, even with a beginner, as long as the beginner has some decent RIDING instruction, especially if something as simple as pleasure riding is intended, and with some guidance, a beginner can manage a schoolmaster. None of that has much to do with PP levels. General horse management, feeding and handling can be learned from the Pony Club Manual, among other references. Saying that someone shouldn’t start with a spoiled or green horse as one’s first “levels” horse DOES imply that PP is a discipline, that doing the levels is an end in itself.
[QUOTE=Sandy M;4235879]
Just occured to me: Why does one NEED a “levels” horse? The choice to me would seem to be either a greenie, a spoiled horse, a good horse with SOME experience, or a very experienced horse (schoolmaster). It is ill-advised for a beginner to take on a greenie or a spoiled horse, most horses that have some experience can probably move on, even with a beginner, as long as the beginner has some decent RIDING instruction, especially if something as simple as pleasure riding is intended, and with some guidance, a beginner can manage a schoolmaster. None of that has much to do with PP levels. General horse management, feeding and handling can be learned from the Pony Club Manual, among other references. Saying that someone shouldn’t start with a spoiled or green horse as one’s first “levels” horse DOES imply that PP is a discipline, that doing the levels is an end in itself.[/QUOTE]
I think that the PP levels are for the people, not horses.
A “level xyz Parelli trained horse” doesn’t mean anything, because there are no horse levels.
When a friend hosted a PP clinic, that is a clinic given by a PP certified instructor, they needed a few extra warm bodies, so a friend and I went.
At that time, they said the best to learn the PP basics was to come with the nicest, olderst horse we could find, because it was about the people, not horse and the less problems a horse may have, the better it was already trained, the better the students would be able to practice what the clinic was teaching.
Since many people don’t have other than young or hard to handle horses, because that is what many beginners somehow end up with, or well trained horses in beginner’s hands without help end up untrained, that is why so many PP clinics have less than ideal horse/handler pairs working.
I think that is why they had to adjust to that reality and make it all so simple and repetitive.
Bluey responded quicker than I did - but yes, that’s how I read it as well.
Gotcha, and agree :yes:
But what PP puts forth is basic training to move on from… and too many PP followers DON’T move on. They make PP’s games an end in themselves, and denigrate people who do move on as ignorant, ill informed or outright abusers. And please, not the “no true PP person would do that.” If that is the case, then PP has created a lot more “false” Parellites than actualy users of his methods. ROFLOL
You’re right, they ARE things to move on from. MANY times Pat and Linda say this - get the concept of Level 1 down and MOVE ON. They DO tell you do do that. Whether the view/reader pays attention to that is another matter, one that they cannot control, unfortunately. There ARE a lot of PNH idiots out there, of that there is zero doubt. It IS a cult, there are a lots of issues with it.
Frankly, if a beginner gets a well schooled horse to learn on, and some supervision from a decent trainer, I don’t see the point of taking the horse all the way back to kindergarten. One could say in order to let the beginner know the basics, but the game playing and such seem pointless (and even confusing) for a well schooled older horse. I’d recommended the Pony Club Manual before PP. ;0)
This is where you may choose one path that may not be suitable or available to another person. Level 1, in its basic concept, is about the human to learn that training a horse needs to be unemotional, consistent, and clear. An experienced person will see what L1 things the horse knows, and when he finds that the horse knows how to move body parts where and when asked, he moves on to making use of asking the horse to move those parts. All good trainers, if they receive a horse into their training program, ought to be running the horse through the very basics, quickly, working their way up, as quickly as they find out the horse knows what to do, to make sure there are no holes that will bite him in the ass later.
Even newbie horse people need to learn how to get a horse out of their space, need to learn how to move the hind end over, need to learn how to get the horse to lower his head for bridling and picking feet up for cleaning. Running through the games can make that interesting for the person (or might make them think horsemanship is silly), but they have a valid place if that’s the method you choose. Otherwise, you’re still doing the same things, just not calling them by any particular name, just saying “tug on his chestnut to get him to lift a foot”.
Just a note: Despite the fact that “the basics” are useful for all horses, there does seem to be a western bias contained within PP. A friend did basic Parelli work with her horse under the supervision of a Parelli certified trainer. Eventually, she had to say, “no mas” because he horse was destined for dressage (and trail riding) and she did not want the horse backed off the bit, which the certified PP trainer was proceeding to do.
Agreed, there must be an awareness of what the horse is destined for. But the exact same situation you just described can and has come up with “generic Cowboy” trainers who are great at starting horses. They either focus too hard too soon on getting the horse off all contact because that’s all they know and don’t know how to teach a horse to ride on contact, or they have to be told up front “Dressage horse here, need him accepting of but light on contact”. PNH doesn’t have that issue cornered by any means
[quote=Sandy M;4235879]Just occured to me: Why does one NEED a “levels” horse? The choice to me would seem to be either a greenie, a spoiled horse, a good horse with SOME experience, or a very experienced horse (schoolmaster). It is ill-advised for a beginner to take on a greenie or a spoiled horse, most horses that have some experience can probably move on, even with a beginner, as long as the beginner has some decent RIDING instruction, especially if something as simple as pleasure riding is intended, and with some guidance, a beginner can manage a schoolmaster. None of that has much to do with PP levels. General horse management, feeding and handling can be learned from the Pony Club Manual, among other references. Saying that someone shouldn’t start with a spoiled or green horse as one’s first “levels” horse DOES imply that PP is a discipline, that doing the levels is an end in itself.
[/quote]
No, it really doesn’t imply that PNH is a dispcline and an end of the means. It is a means to an end, with the end being your chosen discipline (which may be a safe trail horse). Yes, PNH is very much geared largely as beginner horsepeople, or for those who have been around a long time but never really had ANYone teach them anything, they’ve just been winging it. Because of how the Levels are laid out (not saying I agree or disagree, just stating facts), there are specific goals and really a very much progressive, building block nature of the tasks you are asked to do. Level 1 is very, very basic - all about getting the horse to move from pressure, whether that’s physical pressure or mental pressure, and to do it quietly and calmly but with energy. That sets a foundation for building on that. As you progress, you refine those things more and more, using many different activities to help you refine your techinque, help the horse learn more refined cues. So many people get stuck in a rut of going 'round and round the ring, or just riding on a trail, they have no idea of the possibilities of different ways of showing the horse what to do, nor do they make any connection between some “stupid little thing” they’re being asked to do with a real world situation. One example from another board was backing a horse over poles. It’s a task in PNH (not that they invented it, just saying… ;)). I do it, others do it, but there were some that said “why would I want to do that when my trail class only asks horses to go forward over poles?” They could not grasp the concept that teaching a horse how to back over something while lifting his feet could be very, very useful in backing out of a tight spot on a trail, or in a crowed barn aisle, etc. They could not see that many things in this program (and other similar ones) really had very, very useful real-world applications. Having 1 horse whom you learn to read and trust, and develop a relationship with, helps you get through those groundwork and ridden levels so you can learn those things. That’s why you have a “Levels horse” which should be a quiet one to begin with, even if he’s green.
That doesn’t mean PC doesn’t have a valid place. It does not mean that PC teaches it all. That doesn’t mean there aren’t BOs out there who have never seen a show ring, never heard of NH, never trained a show horse, who have the experience to teach real people all these same things (but good luck actually finding one of those, rare creatures they are!). It also doesn’t mean that the top Hunter barn in your area, with some BNT, can teach you anything other than how to ride a horse over a course.
