Hello Equestryn,
I don’t know who this Clinton Anderson is but it sounds as if both you and your horses could use him now, or someone like him.
I use Clinton Anderson methods with my pushy b!tch of a mare on the ground since nothing else gained her respect but that’s where it ends. I’ve never tied a plastic bag on a stick or played games with her other than teaching her to lunge, back, turn on the forehand and turn on the haunches while on the ground. I was at an AQHA show this past weekend and overheard the reining riders discussing how dressage was “forced torture”, all while watching the trantering WP horses getting schooling with vicious repeated yanking on the mouth and having the living daylights spurred out of them. I had a very hard time not opening my mouth.
Ibex - you caught me! Yes, CVP. Never seen the man with the neckstrap though.
But, as an aside, there is that wonderful pony horse at Churchill Downs who leads the winners with just a neck rope (and saddle). I want him.
I did go to see Parelli when he first was becoming famous in Cloverdale. He had a wild Welsh Cobb straight off the prairies - never been touched and have no idea how they got her there. He didn’t achieve anything with the mare, she was so freaked out, but I did admire his patience. He just kept trying and trying. However, what I did get from this was that these huge arena lectures are not fair on the horses. She needed a completely different, slower, quiet approach. She probably took ten steps backwards just by being there, poor thing.
Courtney - in the intersts of me learning something - what Clinton Anderson method did you use to solve your pushy mare problem and did it differ from anybody else’s method?
One thing I have used a lot - I picked up from John Lyons (it’s a bit duh), is ride my horse down a steep hill asking him to stop every couple of strides. It is a great tool to get them to listen and balance. I use piles of hog fuel, or gravel, etc. Up, stop, step down two steps, stop, etc.
[QUOTE=Equestryn;4215531]
I was lunging my young horse once and the guy who pissed me off yesterday came up and said “Oh your one of those boring english people who makes their horses go in endless circles… You should have him canter, and then STOP him real fast and send him in the other direction! Then stop him again and send him the other way. That way he gets to thinking. When he turns his face to the inside to change directions, he’s paying attention to you.”[/QUOTE]
I just picked up a “parelli” horse off some lady for free. She proceeded to tell me, for no less than half an hour, that “her horses are never lunged”. So what does she do? Puts a 10’ lead on the horses halter and chases him in circles for about 20 minutes. I asked her (nicely, mind you) if that wasn’t lunging? She stares at me, with a horrified expression, and exclaims “Why no, this is the CIRCLE game!” :eek: :lol:
Poor horse, took me ages to get him cleaned up. He’s still nutty as hell, but at least he’s finally at the proper weight, has his feet trimmed and is no longer covered in untreated wounds.
I have watched MANY of Chris Cox’s shows and he has NEVER bashed dressage. I’ve learned quite a few things from his show, things that really helped me and my mare with respect issues…it has really paid off…now her dressage training has taken off…because I used those Chris Cox basics with some passive aggressive disrepectful issues that were going on.
The sticks and bags are more of a Parelli thing. I’ve never seen Chris Cox use much of anything other than a lead line.
Now I do find Pat Parelli quite annoying and have seen him bash dressage time and time again on his show (stopped watching it)…it was truly set up like a brain washing pyramid scheme. He even talks about himself in third person at times. :lol:
I feel your pain, but just wanted to point this out.
[QUOTE=dalpal;4216700]
I have watched MANY of Chris Cox’s shows and he has NEVER bashed dressage. I’ve learned quite a few things from his show, things that really helped me and my mare with respect issues…it has really paid off…now her dressage training has taken off…because I used those Chris Cox basics with some passive aggressive disrepectful issues that were going on.
The sticks and bags are more of a Parelli thing. I’ve never seen Chris Cox use much of anything other than a lead line. [/QUOTE]
THANK YOU Dal for clearing Chris Cox’ name :winkgrin: ! Whoever put him in the same category with the others is ignorant of his raw talent, his methods and his compassion for horses. Trainers I personally use/ have worked with from the “other saddle” are Brian Neubert, Curt Pate, Ray Hunt, John Lyons. and Mike Beck. The others? Audited them and ran the other direction. You can’t lump all these trainers together. That would be like categorizing Steffen Peters together with George Morris! After all, they both ride English, don’t they :rolleyes: ?
My -.02 worth…
“NH” has it’s place — it is not an end all and there are reasons for doing some (most) of the ‘exercises’ but there apparently are people who just do the stuff, well, to do the stuff. They don’t really know WHY they’re doing it and they sour the horses by repeating stuff just bec that’s what they were told to do. And they’re afraid to RIDE the horse. We all know who really pushes that approach. . .
But the real horsemen like Chris Cox and Dennis Reis will explain the whys of doing things, it’s just hard to ‘get’ it in just one or two views. Anderson makes it clear but the first two mentioned explain the whys better. Parelli just wants people to stay ‘safely’ on the ground and not sue him bec they’re not riding instructors, just effective marketing by LP. I’ve seen his followers offer stupid suggestions to other people.
And why do those people carry those sticks everywhere??? I’ve used them when teaching some things but all the time??? I like Chris’ thinking; you’re not always gonna have a stick so learn to use your lead rope or body language!
Anyway, yes, good tools but can be overused or used w/no thought as to the whys. Not for everything or everybody but certainly tools worth trying with proper thought. And by tools I do not mean the stick and string, but the moving the feet and gaining respect parts by learning what to move and how, and why. Can be done w/a lead rope.
Hope some of this made some sense. . . to somebody.
Chris Cox rocks!
How about this …
I just got done watching “The Wild Horse Redemption” on the Sundance Channel. Definitely made me rethink the notion of how long it could take a person to ‘learn to train.’ It was very impressive to see on inmate train his first wild mustang, and he was very fearful in the beginning (the guy with the pinto horse.) The documentary jumps around in time, but I think, by the time he got on the horse, it had been a few months of monday-friday weeks that he had been working with the horse. They use round pen/NH type techniques, guided by more experienced inmates, one “Boss” and other experience people are involved on and off (veterinarian, program director, etc.) I don’t know how much time he has spent in the program prior to that, just learning to muck, groom, ride, etc. But the man’s skill level was VERY novice. Very impressive.
If prison inmates can learn to break wild mustangs, I think the rest of humanity does have a pretty good chance of learning horsemanship also. Your boarders enthusiasm undoubtedly needs to be tempered, and they need to not be a hazard/nuisance to the rest of the world. But I don’t doubt that with the right guidance, they could be on a path towards learning a lot.
[QUOTE=smithywess;4216540]
Hello Equestryn,
I don’t know who this Clinton Anderson is but it sounds as if both you and your horses could use him now, or someone like him.[/QUOTE]
:lol::lol::lol:
Am I the only one who noticed this or are we just politely ignoring it? We are politely ignoring it, aren’t we? Oops. My bad. Forget I pointed it out.
I sometimes play with my horse in the round pen on days I don’t want to ride. So my horsey was passaging around and doing spanish walk and stuff trying to impress me so that I would give him sugar cubes. And I run away and he runs after me and passages around me, then stops and does some steps of spanish walk and i give into his cuteness and give him sugar and tell him good boy. Some lady was watching and said “Oh you do Parelli stuff?”:rolleyes: So I just gave a big “OH GOD, no I hate that guy!” Ha ha. I’m just messing around.
But at least Parelli seems better than that damn dog trainer Cesar Milan. At least Parelli isn’t abusive and try to convince people they need to “dominate” their horses or be the “alpha horse” or some crap like that. At least its mostly harmless, unlike Cesar. But I really don’t have the least bit clue about Parelli, he could be advocating those ideas, but it doesn’t seem like it. I have no clue what the 7 games are.
[QUOTE=MyReality;4215634]
I don’t care how they ride their horses… each to their own. But the OP raised a really good point, about how the NH people completely utterly desensitized their horses to the stick/whip and a stick with plastic bag. Now please understand my horses are not crazy, and they are not frightened by the sight of the whip… but I do teach them to move away from the whip, and I hope that is not such a crazy and out of ordinary expectation that the horse do move away from the whip, especially when you point it at the horses or wave it around. Their horses are obviously dead and you couldn’t shout loud enough at them… but please the rest of us do have responsive and obedient horses.[/QUOTE]
i was amazed when hearing jean bemelmans say that his training methods just like the spanish riding schools and all good dressage trainers were NH methods, he said all he expected a horse to do was move away from pressure, to move away from the hand and move away from the leg, and he said thats exactly how a horse behaves naturally, the submissive horse moves away from the pressure of the dominant one. so its NH!! lol and made the same point about the whip! a much clearer and better explanation of how to comunicate with a horse than any ive seen from proper NH people
That’s supposed to be the premise behind NH — the herd hierarchy. The boss mare makes the other horses move their feet; out of her way, out of her space, away from ‘her’ hay pile, etc. I am the boss mare of my herd. I have learned to move their feet (their language) to establish my ‘dominance’ if you will so as to gain their respect. This is really a version of good horsemanship as in do not let your horse invade your space, mug you for treats, etc. A lot of it is common sense but with an eye to how the horse is perceiving you, as in learning how to read the horse and respond appropriately. There are steps you can take to learn to do it, and even to teach your horse how to read you as you are learning to communicate what you want him to do via body language. They know their own body language — they just don’t know YOUR version of it at first!! 
And, what you think you are doing is not always what you ARE doing. . . just like in the saddle.
Anyway, I do not go through these steps all the time. I teach my horses to move their feet, etc and establish respect and go on with other lessons. These moving the hindquarters, moving the forequarters, baccking up, etc are very useful when I want to position the horse for something practical. The Direct and Drive exercise (Chris’ name for it. Others call it differently.) is wonderful to help teach your horse to go where you want it ---- including on the trailer. But you start with the exercise itself and then you are able to use it to direct the horse where you want it — over a tarp, log, bridge, trailer. . . you don’t just do the exercise for lack of knowing anything else to do!! (After you and the horse know it.) And you use what version of the exercises that you need depending on what you are trying to accomplish, maybe for minutes or maybe weekly if you need the tools you now have in your toolbox. Not just bec that’s all you can do! That’s very limiting (D’uh!) and narrow minded.
Not only did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I watched and PRACTICED these things that work. For several years. MY OTTB is waaay more respectful now. And it sure was fun to see his expression when I started being the boss mare!! :lol: He said; “You ARE serious!!” :eek::yes:
Yep, the good ol’ ‘licking and chewing’ and the little brain starts to churn in a good way.
Chris Cox does NOT consider himself a NH trainer, BTW. But I can assure you; he is quite a horseman. He does regular clinics at h/j and dressage barns out west. (CA)
Cheers!
Do you really want dominance over your horse, or leadership?
In a herd situation, there is always a struggle for dominance between horses, and the young horses in the herd grow up and fight the older horses for dominance. Same with a dog pack. So if you want “dominance” over your horse it is going to be a constant battle to a certain extent. Some horses never challenge the status quo and are fine with taking a back seat while others fight for the alpha role, but not ALL horses are like that, and some of the best horses want to be the alpha horse, so if you end up with one of those, you will have a constant battle on your hands.
Likewise, dominance only extends as far as your ability to physically control the situation. For instance, if an alpha dog goes away from the herd for a second, the other dogs are going to mate with his ladies, eat his food etc…
Then there is leadership. Like Gandhi. His power influences his followers even when he is not there. Because his followers want him to be their leader because they have shared goals. This is what you want with your horse. You want your horse to want to please you because he gets something out of it. Treats, attention etc… and he will keep looking for ways to get these things from you.
Dominance does not work all the time. Leadership does. Thats why people like Cesar Milan are way off, and it will just lead to more anger and animal abuse.
I forgot to put in my previous post that most horses are looking for a leader that they can have confidence in. Someone who they can trust, which means you don’t overface your horse but instead build him up and he will want to do things for you. The two horses that are closest to me are the ones I got as babies that I couldn’t touch. I worked carefully, gently, and firmly with them and I am their leader. They are very sweet, they do not get bribed to run up to me, they nicker for me when I am outside and it is not feeding time.
I love Cesar Millan, too. :winkgrin:
JMHO. Works for me. Good luck to you.
I am the only one who shied away from this thread (though I’ve posted on this subject in the past), but opened it due to curiosity after seeing the number of views and posts…then after reading it, wondered what the heck it was doing on the Dressage Forum?:lol::lol::lol:.
Oh Lordy. Who are these people (rhetorical question)?
I shouldn’t get involved in this thread, I really shouldn’t, but I have to sigh
No correct desensitization training method involves running a horse around anything. You have, umm, “speshul” people claiming to use a particular method. This IS a case where you blame the messenger and not the message.
I was at the farm yesterday about to teach a riding lesson to a beginner on a horse who is half arab. Now, my half arab is NOT dangerous in any sense, takes the word ‘Whoa’ absolutely literally and is a saint, however… he’s still half arab and can get excited. My boarders show up with their Clinton Anderson sticks and start waiving them around while walking to the pasture to get their horses. My half arab FREAKS and takes off running circles around his paddock while my student is standing there watching. She was on her way to catching him to tack him up for lesson. Anyway, he’s running, bucking, farting everywhere and the boarders and just beboping across the farm with their stinkin sticks!! Arg!
So a “saint” of a horse freaks out because someone is waiving a stick? Doesn’t sound very well-trained to me What’s so different between a lunge whip and a NH stick? What if you were at a show and some kid went running buy waiving a real honest tree branch stick? When I was riding my WB gelding in the pasture and hubby was dragging a dead cedar branch across the pasture, and my gelding was a bit wigged out, I looked at it as a training opportunity. You cannot control what other people do, for the most part, but you CAN control how you teach your horse(s) to behave when frightened.
After lesson I decide to catch my young gelding whom I have been working with for the last 4 months trying to put weight on (he was a rescue) and in the process of breaking. He lives with the boarders two horses in the big pasture. They’ve already caught their horses and are “playing” with them in the ring. All that Clinton Anderson stuff with the sticks, long ropes, games and such.
Good for them
As a side note, I totally understand that the “Natural Horsemanship” stuff kinda makes sense. I understand the concepts behind it, but I have a different way of achieving the same results without the sticks.
So you have a problem with their choice of equipment? Why? The NH stick is nothing more than your dressage whip or lunge whip - an extension of your arm. It’s difference comes in its actual use on the horse - the stiffness of it allows for different behavior than the “whippy” flexibility of the dressage or lunge whip. So?
Anyway, they’re swinging their ropes and bags and such and my horse who had come up to me at that point takes off. I stood patiently til he ran it out for a minute and he came back. But by then he’d figured out that I was going to work him and he stood within 5 feet of me, but wouldn’t let me get close enough to catch him.
Sounds like a great training opportunity to me What if a big truck or three went backfiring down your road and your horse got all excited over that?
The boarder came out into the field with me and said “Horse Catching One oh One” and I snapped back “I know how to catch horses, thanks.” That’s where I dropped the attitude and just sort of ignored his “I’ve seen Clinton Anderson catch a wild horse in a 35 acre field in 15 minutes” comments. GRRR!!!
That’s when you politely smile and say “thanks, I’m fine” and go about your business.
Then he makes comments about Dressage as that’s what I’m going to be training my gelding to do. “Oh, you don’t want to put saddles on them until you can walk trot and canter bareback with a rope halter” “Dressage is so unnatural, you force the horse into that shape, force him to do tricks”
See above - smile and say thanks for your opinion.
Where do Clinton Anderson, Chris Cox and Pat Parelli followers get off thinking that they know everything??
Where do some DQs get off telling people if they aren’t “doing” Dressage they aren’t really riding?
Just because you WATCH VIDEOS of people training doesn’t mean you know it!!
You don’t say!! The same can be said about anyone who gets any training video of any discipline and thinks they can do it.
You have to do it, nothing replaces time in the saddle! Two years of video watching versus 17 years of riding and training…
See above
Oh and the boarder comments on how my horse hasn’t been put through the seven games so I shouldn’t be sitting on him at all! Oh, and my horse is a paint and has that traditional “crazy eye” due to the white scelera (sp?) around his eye and the guy says “Clinton Anderson would tell you to sell this horse immediately, he’s got the wild eye, he’ll never be a good horse.”
For starters, CA wouldn’t say that, but that’s beside the point. Again, smile and thank them for their opinion. Everyone’s got one
Wow, this is longer than I thought it’d be. Sorry! Thanks to those of you who continued to the end…
I definately feel better now.
Glad you do. Think about how you feel right now the next time someone neophyte greenhorn gets all upset with you for lunging your horse in the field/ring next to where he’s riding his green horse and getting upset with you for what you are doing with your horse because it’s upsetting his horse.
Yeah, I’m with JB.
To the original poster - It is what it is and if you cannot catch your horse, this is not the natural horsemanship problem this is a training problem between you and your horse. The fact that they CAN catch their horses with plastic bags just seems to me that their horses are better trained, in that regard, than either one of your horses.
[QUOTE=Long Spot;4216948]
:lol::lol::lol:
Am I the only one who noticed this or are we just politely ignoring it? We are politely ignoring it, aren’t we? Oops. My bad. Forget I pointed it out.
;)[/QUOTE]
politely ignoring- just like I politely ignored the boarder with the hoola hoops, free lunging in the arena (While I was riding), getting them to stand on the mounting block-
Fortunately they moved…
:lol::lol:
Flame suit ON
[QUOTE=cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony;4217137]
Do you really want dominance over your horse, or leadership?
In a herd situation, there is always a struggle for dominance between horses, and the young horses in the herd grow up and fight the older horses for dominance. Same with a dog pack. So if you want “dominance” over your horse it is going to be a constant battle to a certain extent. Some horses never challenge the status quo and are fine with taking a back seat while others fight for the alpha role, but not ALL horses are like that, and some of the best horses want to be the alpha horse, so if you end up with one of those, you will have a constant battle on your hands.
Likewise, dominance only extends as far as your ability to physically control the situation. For instance, if an alpha dog goes away from the herd for a second, the other dogs are going to mate with his ladies, eat his food etc…
Then there is leadership. Like Gandhi. His power influences his followers even when he is not there. Because his followers want him to be their leader because they have shared goals. This is what you want with your horse. You want your horse to want to please you because he gets something out of it. Treats, attention etc… and he will keep looking for ways to get these things from you.
Dominance does not work all the time. Leadership does. Thats why people like Cesar Milan are way off, and it will just lead to more anger and animal abuse.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I think you are DEAD wrong. Dominance IS a form of leadership. Horses and dogs aren’t people like Ghandi and can’t be “reasoned” with in the same sense. As long as people insist on anthropomorphizing their animals and giving them human powers of thought and reasoning (or treating them like humans), people will have serious behavioral problems with their animals. Like all those crazy dudes wanting to be friends with bears. It’s freaking bears! They don’t want to be your friend!
Cesar Milan is awesome. You don’t see horses and wolves using f*cking clickers in the wild. He also takes on cases where dogs are seriously aggressive and need immediate interventions - not like that silly poser Victoria Stillwell…
Here’s another thing, I know a lot of PH people and they also buy into the “natural” shoeing business too since wild horses don’t wear shoes, etc. Why is it okay to use “natural horse” philosophy in some areas and not in training? When a horse doesn’t get out of my gelding’s way, he bites and kicks to let him know “HEY, this is MY area” how is that any different from me using my whip to say “HEY, you need to listen NOW?” Seems hypocritical to me.
