Natural Horsemanship... grrr! *Rant, sorry*

[dalpal]

[QUOTE=GreekDressageQueen;4217870]
Personally, I think you are DEAD wrong. Dominance IS a form of leadership. Horses and dogs aren’t people like Ghandi and can’t be “reasoned” with in the same sense. As long as people insist on anthropomorphizing their animals and giving them human powers of thought and reasoning (or treating them like humans), people will have serious behavioral problems with their animals. Like all those crazy dudes wanting to be friends with bears. It’s freaking bears! They don’t want to be your friend!

Cesar Milan is awesome. You don’t see horses and wolves using f*cking clickers in the wild. He also takes on cases where dogs are seriously aggressive and need immediate interventions - not like that silly poser Victoria Stillwell…

Here’s another thing, I know a lot of PH people and they also buy into the “natural” shoeing business too since wild horses don’t wear shoes, etc. Why is it okay to use “natural horse” philosophy in some areas and not in training? When a horse doesn’t get out of my gelding’s way, he bites and kicks to let him know “HEY, this is MY area” how is that any different from me using my whip to say “HEY, you need to listen NOW?” Seems hypocritical to me.[/QUOTE]

:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

I love Cesar Millian…look at some of the cases he gets where the owner has “loved” the dog into a monster.

I will also say this for Parelli (I’m not a huge fan, primarily just because I don’t like his approach to humans)…if you watch his 7 games videos…he might give those games “cutsey names” for his audience…but he isn’t taking any crap from the horse either. Too many of his followers have interrupted his messages wrong.

I watched a Chris Cox epsiode not too long ago where a lady (experienced horsewoman at that) had let her yearling colt become a nightmare. She would take grain in to catch him…he quickly learned that he could get the feed, then kick her/scare her and then go back out into the pasture and have a glorious day to himself. She was so frightened that he might get hurt (worth $$$$) that she seperated him from the rest of the herd…which made him even more neurotic towards her. He needed some broodmares to beat his little ass.
Anyway, Chris Cox went in and as soon as he turned his butt to Chris…Chris was after him, burning up his rear end with a leadline…it wasn’t brutal…but it got his point across and quickly. In about 10 minutes, the horse was following Chris around the pasture without a halter or leadline, totally submissive. Was Chris the dominate one? HELL YES, he was, but he got his point across quickly and didn’t keep nagging or pleading with the horse to be good because he was loved.

Tommy Garland also has an awesome show.

I haven’t watched the rest, only have time for so many…but those two are worth DVRing and watching if you get RFTVD. I’ve learned ALOT from both of those men…and wouldn’t hesitate to ride in one of their clinics if the opportunity ever rose.

[system]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;4216674]
Courtney - in the intersts of me learning something - what Clinton Anderson method did you use to solve your pushy mare problem and did it differ from anybody else’s method?[/QUOTE]

His was the only method suggested to me after me trying good old fashioned patience and repetition and trying to get the desired results with kindness. I was getting run over on a daily basis, horse had zero respect for me, the halter, giving to or moving away from pressure, etc. No ground manners. And she’s big and strong and very much the alpha mare. We had a girl at the barn who was very into CA’s methods but perhaps a bit too much that she took it overboard. I don’t think I ever saw her do anything with her mare other than lunge her and make her change directions every 5 strides, and when she rode it was always canter in a circle, halt, back, canter in a circle, repeat. She eventually gave up riding but her mom kept her CA “stuff” and when she offered to help me I finally relented. Keep in mind I am just going off what she told me so I’m not sure if all of this is 100% of what he says! The premise is the horse needs to stay out of your space and be aware of you and listening to you at all times. I tried everything on this mare from stud chains and leading her with a crop and so on. She was going to get me seriously hurt at some point in time and almost did when she came at me one day while I was leading her in. I had a rope halter but she ran right through that. Clintons however she did not. I also like the rope that comes with it. It’s very soft and if she was to bolt it would not rip my hands off. The stick I also like better than a regular lunge whip. It’s plastic with a litte popper type thing on the end where you tie the string to (I always took the string off). The first lunging session with his stuff she pulled her normal trying to bolt antics. I hung onto the rope and yanked back with all my might and amazingly she stopped. I credit that to the halter, she has run right through everything else. I asked her to walk. She started rearing. I was told if the horses behavior escalates, you take it to the next level too and never let them win the fight. So I went after her with the stick, and she soon realized this was no fun and all her rearing and hopping about was a lot of work. Backing was non existant for her. I was told to jiggle the rope and just start walking towards her swinging the stick at her chest area and saying BACK. She of course reared. Got popped on the chest a few times. She quickly gave up on that. It took a bit more time to teach her to turn on the forehand and on the haunches because she is so reactive that to her asking her to move her body leads to her trying to go wherever she pleases. She had no whoa either. I’m happy to say I can now work her wherever, with no rope halter or stick, she ties, I’m comfortable handling her anywhere and she LISTENS, and backs and stops and stands off voice commands. Some people might have considered me popping her and going after her as mean, but I’d rather it come to me being “mean” to her for a few weeks so she learns some respect than her injuring me just doing some simple daily task. Some days she still doesn’t like to do things I ask but she at least does them and doesn’t pitch a fit other than the occasional nasty face or a tail swish.

[Rev-Rider]

Why would anyone bash Cesar Milan??? A: He has nothing to do with NH and B: he helps people with there potentially dangerous dogs. I love him! IMO If you don’t understand “pack order” you shouldn’t own a dog. Afterall they are a pack hunting animal. Ok, getting of my soap box on that one.

As for Chris Cox, he and Parelli are night and day. I like Cox, he rides and trains well, requires respect from his horses and there are no gimmicks. He appreciates dressage and has even included some sporthorses in his shows.

Parelli on the other hand is an odd mix of snake oil salesmen and cult leader with an excellent PR rep. Some of His “products” can be dangerous. I personally witnessed one of his clinic participants have there horse spook and hook there front tendon with the lead ropes snap. (its like a carabineer) The poor horse ended up with his head attached to his leg!

I also find it funny that the same tool ( a whip with a bag or flag on the end) is used as an arm extensions in the NH world, which the horse is desensitized too. Is used by us in the sport world at inspections to enhance our horses gaits … ie spook them…

[JB]

@dalpal;4217881

I will also say this for Parelli (I’m not a huge fan, primarily just because I don’t like his approach to humans)…if you watch his 7 games videos…he might give those games “cutsey names” for his audience…but he isn’t taking any crap from the horse either. Too many of his followers have interrupted his messages wrong.

Yep, the point of naming the “games” was so the human would start to see training as fun and interesting, and to separate the issues - are you trying to get your horse to come to you, get away from you, or move body parts in a direction of your choosing. It’s the same flippin’ thing every good trainer does. So what if Pat chose to come at it from a different point of view? He gets aggressive (if necessary!) in getting the desired response from the horse, he CERTAINLY gets aggressive if the horse is barging his space, which is the whole point. Yep, shoot the messenger in the case of the idiots who don’t have a clue what they are doing.

Anyway, Chris Cox went in and as soon as he turned his butt to Chris…Chris was after him, burning up his rear end with a leadline…it wasn’t brutal…but it got his point across and quickly. In about 10 minutes, the horse was following Chris around the pasture without a halter or leadline, totally submissive. Was Chris the dominate one? HELL YES, he was, but he got his point across quickly and didn’t keep nagging or pleading with the horse to be good because he was loved.

Exactly. The horse is a horse, talk Horse to him correctly, and he responds very well.

I think people really don’t understand dominance, or want to put the wrong definition of it when it comes to this. It is not about being a cruel dictator who does whatever the hell he wants. It is about being a fair and honest leader, the dominant horse (or “horse”) in the herd. The Alpha. That’s all. Horses want a leader in their herd. If you won’t do it, they will, and that generally doesn’t bode well for the human. It’s not about beating a horse into submission to make him do what you want out of fear, it is about instilling in him that you are the one controlling his actions, and really, when it’s black and white and fair, that’s really just fine with the horse.

ALL good training does that, whether you realize it or not. People just get so wigged out when the NH term comes into play and automatically think it’s weird voodoo stuff that has no relevance to their world. It’s the SAME stuff, just in a different package.

[slc2]

Extremes do not work. Going off on a horse because someone is angry doesn’t work, and neither does cuddling them when they are biting you, kicking you and knocking you over. There has to be some rational middle ground.

People with rigidly fixed and very arbitrary ‘recipes’(ie, Parelli cultists), with ineffective, irrational, anger based methods. People who rely too rigidly on one person’s DVD also fail - ALWAYS. A DVD can’t watch someone and say, ‘That ain’t workin’, do somethin’ else’.

Of the ‘stressed out’ horses at the colt breaking contests, I’d say ALL the ‘name trainers’ did a very, very BAD job, all the horses looked stressed and confused, not one of them did a decent job, not as decent as ordinary folks who take their time, read the horse, do effective and adaptable things. Their ‘philosophies’ prevent them from success. They’re too rigid, they don’t react to the horse properly, they have no economy of effort, either. Lots of wasted effort, lots of stress, lots of mess, lots of dangerous stuff going on, and a poor end result.

Cult trainers always have some schtick - they’re a cowboy, they’re an Indian, they have a stick.

People just love that. They dress up in chaps and mustaches and capes and breechcloths. People go mad and fork over fifty or two hundred dollars (over and over, LOL).

What works the best is having a lot of knowledge about horses, and taking a little bit from everything one sees and experiences, leaving alone what does not work, and seeing and experiencing A LOT.

And honestly, more than anything, I think to handle rough horses (and dogs) it takes a person who is very calm, unemotional(ie, not afraid), sympathetic, patient, consistent, persistent and doesn’t get offended, just finds something that works and can train the animal without losing their temper, AND can change his tack when something is not working.

Many people just can’t ‘read’ a horse. They don’t see it starting to move, they don’t understand how it thinks, they don’t have a firm idea in mind of what they want the horse to do, and they just can’t seem to work out in their mind, how to teach a horse something. No matter what video they get, they’re always in trouble. Unfortunately, I just think there are people that don’t ever learn this. They need to be around only very quiet, well trained older horses; even then they tend to get into trouble.

Videos don’t help these people. They have to change themselves fundamentally, so they can focus on what they are seeing and what is happening and react to it. Some people just have a fundamental inability to do that.

It also takes realistic expectations. If the horse isn’t in a steady, consistent program of the proper feed, exercise, turnout and gets worked frequently(5,6 days a week, for an age appropriate time period), don’t expect it to behave. No video is going to help someone who can’t keep their horse in a program.

[JB]

@Rev-Rider;4217988

Why would anyone bash Cesar Milan??? A: He has nothing to do with NH and B: he helps people with there potentially dangerous dogs. I love him! IMO If you don’t understand “pack order” you shouldn’t own a dog. Afterall they are a pack hunting animal. Ok, getting of my soap box on that one.

It’s really not any different. CM speaks Dog, NH folks speak Horse, both do it in a manner that is different from a lot of other trainers, but the good ones all really do the same thing, use the same language, slightly different applications. CM IS the “NH” trainer of dogs. Also, NH trainers, just good trainers in general, some prefer not to be labeled as such, and I can’t say as I blame them, also work with the owners. Some will refuse to take on a problem horse if the owner doesn’t commit to some training of their own. So again, they are not any different.

As for Chris Cox, he and Parelli are night and day. I like Cox, he rides and trains well, requires respect from his horses and there are no gimmicks. He appreciates dressage and has even included some sporthorses in his shows.

Define “gimmick”? He uses the same basic tools as Pat does - rope halter, stick, lines.

Parelli on the other hand is an odd mix of snake oil salesmen and cult leader with an excellent PR rep. Some of His “products” can be dangerous. I personally witnessed one of his clinic participants have there horse spook and hook there front tendon with the lead ropes snap. (its like a carabineer) The poor horse ended up with his head attached to his leg!

And that’s Pat’s fault or his equipment’s fault…how exactly? :rolleyes: There are plenty of “normal” lead ropes out there with big heavy bull snaps. You’re implying that because they aren’t related to Pat and aren’t a carabiner snap that the horse can’t POSSIBLY get hurt on them. Sure.

I also find it funny that the same tool ( a whip with a bag or flag on the end) is used as an arm extensions in the NH world, which the horse is desensitized too. Is used by us in the sport world at inspections to enhance our horses gaits … ie spook them…

So because you do it one way, it’s right, and someone else does it another way, it’s wrong? :rolleyes: Maybe you find it funny that there are some folks who have posted here about how their horse spooks if they switch whip hands by flipping the whip over the top of the horse and how can they do it more sneakily so the horse doesn’t know/spook? Or how they can’t put on or take off a jacket while mounted because their horse spooks? Or perhaps you find it amusing that there are some Hunter Princesses who ask show management to tell the kid at the end of the ring to take his toys and play elsewhere because it spooks his horse?

[nadasy]

Centeur:
While they were into this stuff, I had lunch with my friend and a “parelli” friend of hers. The friend tried to impress with “the talk” and sez to me, “Wouldn’t you like to ride a cross country course with NO bridle?” My eyes grew to saucer size as I said while shaking my head slowly, “No.”

Sure, on the off chance that 2010 Area Championships will offer a special division…

Gry2Yng:
I have stuck my foot in my mouth while looking at a few sale horses. “Those damn carrot sticks…” then noticing the carrot stick in the corner.

I always had the feeling NH people were lurking about secretly wishing that with time and ‘sane’ training their horses could be like ours…
Yes, How many times will a horse encounter the need to be desensitized by the bag on a stick trick?

From my point of view my goal in life was NOT to:

1. Leap the Grand Canyon, bridle less or otherwise
2. Ward off an angry crowd with sticks and baggies
3. Ride ANY dressage test sans saddle and bridle
4. Gallop along the beach (where to find one that didn’t entail a very loooong trip) Au Natural (no saddle, no clothes, no bridle, no shoes) = NO SERVICE.

I remember when the craze took hold in our area and it was astounding that it became such a cult like mentality so quickly. Horses were ruined, riders were confused, BO’s lost many clients.

Frightening that this would motivate people (I guess nothing better to do here in Winter) more than actually trying to accomplish something in their lives.
Oh, right then, (sorry snarky statement making an entrance here :lol:)

IT’S AN INFOMERCIAL…:eek:…get rich quick schemes, easy way out yada yada, do you wonder about people who just want to be ‘taken care of’-programmed-leaving the responsibility for the eventual Crash in some instances, to someone else?

While I’m all for doing things in a more natural (read: without gimmicks), these are AFTER ALL horses, and large and heavy, quick and unpredictable, and if we are going to actually ride them and do things together, we need to find a way for both of us to exist safely and sanely, so that neither feel threatened, otherwise maybe they just need to belong to someone else. Some horses are easier to bring along than others, and some require that they are NEVER left unattended while riding or handling.

I’ve loved reading this thread. Great stories. Off to ride my ‘pony’…

[JB]

@nadasy;4218165

Yes, How many times will a horse encounter the need to be desensitized by the bag on a stick trick?

Well, I for one don’t want my horse leaving town the first/next time a plastic bag blows by us at a show

Honestly, some of you “normal” people could learn a lot from the desensitization stuff that NH folks, and Western folks, do to their horses. Sure, one can take it too far, and some do, but I really just laugh at people on this forum and the H/J forum who are so peeved at what someone else is doing that causes THEIR horse to get upset. It’s YOUR job to teach your horse to behave when spooked. You cannot ever show him everything that he’ll ever encounter, but you can expose him to a lot of different things that are easy to do at your house/barn that can teach him the proper response.

[slc2]

As Brian Regan said, ‘not to criticize other’s intelligence, but…well…let’s begin’…LOL.

[narcisco]

For me, the pervading issue is not the system, the style, the carrot sticks or the silly games. The big issue here, and in all systems (as we have the railbirds in dressage too), is a lack of boundaries on people’s parts.

When they are waving their bags around and scaring other horses, they are showing a lack of connection to things around them and a lack of knowledge of horsemanship, for a better word. They are not only disrespecting the other horses and people, they are putting them at risk.

This has nothing to do with YOUR horses, how they are trained, or how hard they are to catch. It has to do with the boarders and their boundaries.

As barn manager/herd leader, YOU need to develop some dominance and authority in order to keep your herd safe. I might approach it on that level. When you see the NHer putting others at risk, step in. Say, “it is important when you are working the horse in this manner to be aware of the whole herd. If others in the herd are spooking and frightened, it is not due their training, it is because you are frightening them. It is a normal horse reaction, just as if a wolf appeared in the herd. Your horse is in a controlled environment and understands what is going on. The other horses are showing normal herd behavior in response to a threat.”

When you are longeing or riding a horse and someone comes up and starts yakking, they are again putting you and your horse at risk. A firm, “when I am longing or riding, in order to concentrate and keep me and my horse safe, I ask that no one interrupts me, except in an emergency. Feel free to watch and if you want to set a time to ask questions about my methods later, we can do that.”

As for the goofy comments about the sclera around the eye and all the other happy horses**t I hear from the unwashed masses, I tend to use a formula response, learned somewhere in the decades of therapy I’ve needed working in the horse business. When someone says something monumentally stupid and impossible to prove or disprove, or quotes a dubious source, I look less at what is said and more how they say it. If it’s negative, I say (using formula), “when you say Clinton Anderson says my horse will be useless, I feel bad. In the future, I would prefer that you keep negative comments to yourself.”

The formula is to point out the exact behavior, tell them how it makes you feel and ask for what you really want. No one can argue with how something makes you feel.

If that doesn’t work, when they say or do something stupid, make porcupine pointy fingers, poke them in the ribs and say, “sssss” like Cesar Milan.

[nadasy]

Point taken. I guess I live in a great setup, that I had nothing to do with. I live on a main highway, where large loads, windmill parts, flapping tarps on oversized loads, giant farm equipment, herds of motorcycles lumbering by, and we are steadily working together. Sure it took time for him, nothing is quick with some horses, but in about 2 months, he was pretty much bombproof. I may ask for a smaller circle, ask for a shoulder fore, or trot over some trotting poles. My goal is to stay focused on my work, with my horse, and keep him focused.

With the exception of the greenheads on his belly causing him to momentarily lose his mind, I just keep beavering along and he gets over it. Somehow I cannot see that waving a bag on a stick would help in this situation.

I respect what you say, really, and if it helps your horse with bags at a show or where ever, then that’s great. Honestly, not everything works for every body or horse. I think each of us has to find our own solutions to our own ‘holes’ in our programme, and if this works for you-Great! Isn’t that what the training of the horse and rider is all about?

You study, educate yourself, and take things from people that work for your situation and horse. Nothing is perfect, and when we get a great transition, a great gallop and jump I think it’s all worth it. To each his own.

[nature]

Your Barn… Your Rules!! PERIOD.

I am all for natural horsemanship,I use it extensively, but when anyone start scaring other horses and being UNSAFE with their sticks, they need to be told.

I do not care whose method it is, they were scaring other horses. They need to be considerate of others and use their sticks where it does not bother anyone or any horse.

That is being, SAFE, CONSIDERATE. PERIOD!!!

[thought]

This thread…

This thread just kept making me think of that Ron L. Hubbard quote:

“If you want to get rich, you start a religion”.

I don’t want to offend anyone, but in my mind I’m comparing dressage to psychology, and ‘natural’ horsemanship to…

[dalpal]

[QUOTE=Rev-Rider;4217988]
Why would anyone bash Cesar Milan??? A: He has nothing to do with NH and B: he helps people with there potentially dangerous dogs. I love him! IMO If you don’t understand “pack order” you shouldn’t own a dog. Afterall they are a pack hunting animal. Ok, getting of my soap box on that one.

As for Chris Cox, he and Parelli are night and day. I like Cox, he rides and trains well, requires respect from his horses and there are no gimmicks. He appreciates dressage and has even included some sporthorses in his shows.

Parelli on the other hand is an odd mix of snake oil salesmen and cult leader with an excellent PR rep. Some of His “products” can be dangerous. I personally witnessed one of his clinic participants have there horse spook and hook there front tendon with the lead ropes snap. (its like a carabineer) The poor horse ended up with his head attached to his leg!

I also find it funny that the same tool ( a whip with a bag or flag on the end) is used as an arm extensions in the NH world, which the horse is desensitized too. Is used by us in the sport world at inspections to enhance our horses gaits … ie spook them…[/QUOTE]

Because they don’t understand his techniques and look for any opportunity to bash him…youre right, it doesn’t belong on a NH thread. I doubt seriously any of these people have ever dealt with an out of control 100 pound dog who is a serious threat to their owners and society.

[thought]

This thread…

This thread reminds me of the Ron L. Hubbard quote (which is ironic in its own right):

“You want to get rich, you start a religion”.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony;4217137]

Dominance does not work all the time. Leadership does. Thats why people like Cesar Milan are way off, and it will just lead to more anger and animal abuse.[/QUOTE]

I dunno – anybody who can keep some 20-30 dogs, many of them Rotties & pits, loose in an area where they share food, water, shelter, toys and have them all get along is quite a leader imho. I don’t hear of massive dog fights breaking out over a Cesar’s place when he leaves.

And I have NEVER had one of my younger horses challenge my alpha mare, who has been alpha for 10 years or so. Even her daughter, now 6 yrs. old, does not. The only two times we’ve had a “battle” for dominance was when I brought in new mares, both of whom were older.

[jeta]

I would guess from the OP that she is more upset at the ATTITUDE OF SUPIORITY her boarders have more than anything…

C’mon, all of you true NH followers have NEVER had a horse that is usually an easy catch, decide to be silly on occasion or have his attention be diverted and him decide to do a loop or two around the pasture, just because??? I don’t believe it for a second…

I am of the camp that I learned a lot of methods from many different horsemen and some trial and error of my own and I draw from that and my own instincts to achieve whatever my goal might be…Each horse is an individual and you need a whole toolbox full of methods to draw from to get the job done…If NH is what works for you, great…If Parelli or whoever brings joy into your life, great…If you produce respectful, attentive and well trained animals as an exclusive result of their methods, great…

However, and I think that what the OP is getting at, DON’T try to summise and preach from what appears to be the boarder’s limited horse experience, and presume she needed a lesson in catching a horse she knows well…just because he was having a moment of silliness, that really hurt no one…

I have experienced only one Parelli follower and I fear for her…Nice enough woman and I got along fine with her, but she bought into all the gadgets and was ready to venture off on her own to “teach” after passing Level I or however the heirarchy of the lessons go…

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=JB;4218179]
Well, I for one don’t want my horse leaving town the first/next time a plastic bag blows by us at a show

Honestly, some of you “normal” people could learn a lot from the desensitization stuff that NH folks, and Western folks, do to their horses. Sure, one can take it too far, and some do, but I really just laugh at people on this forum and the H/J forum who are so peeved at what someone else is doing that causes THEIR horse to get upset. It’s YOUR job to teach your horse to behave when spooked. You cannot ever show him everything that he’ll ever encounter, but you can expose him to a lot of different things that are easy to do at your house/barn that can teach him the proper response.[/QUOTE]

How true!! I’ll never forget when I sent my barely started 3 yr old WB with his NH cowboy trainer to a dressage clinic. Everyone of the other horses had some requirement per their owner/riders – “Turn off the heater!! That hissing noise scares him to death…” “God, don’t take off your (nylon) windbreaker in front of Blaze, he’s liable to dump me!” Oh, and then there was the (I kid you not) hysteric who insisted we removed the cat from the arena, as it made her horse nervous!

Meanwhile, my 3 yr old with barely 30 days on him, in a strange arena he’d never seen, plodded along with this bemused cowboy rider “flagging” him all over the arena (BB devotee). Of course, we could not even RAISE the flag when the other horses were around.

Downside was that we sort of screwed the pooch when it came to getting this horse on the bit, but nothing much bothered him in terms of spooky stuff after that beginning.

I agree that people should not endanger others, but when you see your horse reacting to ANYTHING that violently that they might someday encounter on their own, it’s a sign you have some work to do as a rider/trainer.

You can’t control the whole wide world.

[quietann]

Apologies in advance for the “it’s all about me” post…

My mare is lovely, her breeders put excellent ground manners on their horses, but she is dominant and does sometimes get too pushy with me. I did have a “NH” trainer come work with her when we were having trailer issues, and it helped in some ways… BUT.

The big “but” for me is that the horse is well-trained, so anyone with a lot of experience can get her obedient in a matter of minutes, but I am not a person with a lot of experience, so all it does is make me feel bad about how I work with the horse (or don’t). It’s just one of the ways my brain is broken. And I’m finding that there are not a lot of “experts” in the horse world, NH or not, who are willing to not just step in and take over from me. My trainer usually is not, and it’s one of the reasons I like her.

I often take my mare out for a very short road hack after our lessons. These are desensitization sessions in a lot of ways, because she’s a looky horse with a big spook, and I never know what we might find out there. It’s desensitization for both of us, and a trust-building exercise. Here is something I wrote yesterday, after almost but not quite getting maresy past some Very Scary trash barrels. I made the decision to stop for pure safety reasons – I do not want her melting down in the middle of the road.

“So… it was a failure in a way, but it ties into something very important. My horse can be difficult. Sometimes she borders on too difficult for me, and there are “experts” in my life who are all too willing to rush in and take over. Sometimes I really need it. Sometimes I am not so sure. Sometimes the experts make things worse. And sometimes – especially when they get through to her in a way I just cannot – all it does is make me feel helpless about my horse, which is a very bad place to take a somewhat depressive horse owner. But when I take her on the road, it’s just her and me. No one will rush in to help, and I have to make the decisions. So even when the road rides don’t go as well, and when I make a decision that might make an expert say, “oh, she’s just got your number,” they are confidence builders.”

[JB]

@narcisco;4218207

For me, the pervading issue is not the system, the style, the carrot sticks or the silly games. The big issue here, and in all systems (as we have the railbirds in dressage too), is a lack of boundaries on people’s parts.

Agree - again, it’s the poor implementation of any fine program that is a problem, not necessarily the program itself.

When they are waving their bags around and scaring other horses, they are showing a lack of connection to things around them and a lack of knowledge of horsemanship, for a better word. They are not only disrespecting the other horses and people, they are putting them at risk.

I think it depends on what they are doing. If someone has to stop holding a stick over their head when walking to the pasture to get their horse, because other horses are getting rile up, that’s a problem. But if they are working on some extreme desensitization techniques with their horse and it’s putting another person in danger because their horse just cannot handle it, then yes, they need to stop and find someplace or some time better to work on their horse’s training.

This has nothing to do with YOUR horses, how they are trained, or how hard they are to catch. It has to do with the boarders and their boundaries.

Again, it depends. Sure, it would be nice if everyone could see that very simple actions on their part are causing a problem for someone else, and do what they can to not endanger anyone else. But at the same, those whose horses are freaked out by someone waiving a stick over their head while they walk out into a pasture should take that as a cue that they really should do some more work with their horse. It’s one thing to ask someone at your barn to stop what they are doing so you can get control over your horse. But you have show environments where people do all sorts of stuff that your horse might not like. Are you going to ask show management to have all bikes or golf carts put away because it bothers your horse? What about baby strollers and umbrellas? Use your boarding situation to do whatever it takes to teach your horse that life is not about being babied.

As barn manager/herd leader, YOU need to develop some dominance and authority in order to keep your herd safe. I might approach it on that level. When you see the NHer putting others at risk, step in. Say, “it is important when you are working the horse in this manner to be aware of the whole herd. If others in the herd are spooking and frightened, it is not due their training, it is because you are frightening them. It is a normal horse reaction, just as if a wolf appeared in the herd. Your horse is in a controlled environment and understands what is going on. The other horses are showing normal herd behavior in response to a threat.”

:yes:

The formula is to point out the exact behavior, tell them how it makes you feel and ask for what you really want. No one can argue with how something makes you feel.

Excellent point.

[quote=nature;4218226]I am all for natural horsemanship,I use it extensively, but when anyone start scaring other horses and being UNSAFE with their sticks, they need to be told.
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However, if your horse is scared simply because someone is waiving their stick at their horse, that really is something you need to address with your horse. In the meantime, sure, you have a right to ask the person to tone it down so that you may safely work with your horse. But you need to also realize there is a problem with your situation. Waiving a stick around is so benign, it should be a basic issue for a horse to not be bothered by it.

I do not care whose method it is, they were scaring other horses. They need to be considerate of others and use their sticks where it does not bother anyone or any horse.

If others are having safety issues, I agree. But again, it should point to you that your horses have an issue that you need to deal with. Train the horse to deal with the world. You cannot constantly ask all the world to tip-toe around your horse.

[quote=jeta;4218541]I would guess from the OP that she is more upset at the ATTITUDE OF SUPIORITY her boarders have more than anything…

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Nah, there were quite a few things where it was clear to me that there is an issue with the equipment and some of the simple things being done.

C’mon, all of you true NH followers have NEVER had a horse that is usually an easy catch, decide to be silly on occasion or have his attention be diverted and him decide to do a loop or two around the pasture, just because??? I don’t believe it for a second…

Who said anything to the contrary?

However, and I think that what the OP is getting at, DON’T try to summise and preach from what appears to be the boarder’s limited horse experience, and presume she needed a lesson in catching a horse she knows well…just because he was having a moment of silliness, that really hurt no one…

I have experienced only one Parelli follower and I fear for her…Nice enough woman and I got along fine with her, but she bought into all the gadgets and was ready to venture off on her own to “teach” after passing Level I or however the heirarchy of the lessons go…

There are nutcases in every discipline, of every following. I’ll be the first to admit there are some weird, scary PNH followers. It really can become a cult mentality if that is your personality. There are OODLES of PNH followers who have drank the koolaide, and I choose to not associate with them. You cannot reason with them, they have blinders on, they are just not the type of people I want to be around (and often that is their outlook on many things, not just PNH in general, so even more reason I don’t wish to hang around them).