Natural Horsemanship... grrr! *Rant, sorry*

[rugbygirl]

It has nothing to do with me liking or not. I just find it very sad that someone who uses “different” methods to play with/train/desensitize their horse is labeled a fruitcake and weird and not normal, then it automatically gets lumped into the NH world, then out comes the “it’s not even natural to ride a horse, much less play with it with beach balls, why do they call themselves natural horsemen?” That tells me they do NOT understand what NH, the GOOD stuff, the good training, is all about.

Well, playing with beach balls and stuff ISN’T “normal”. It’s unusual. Particularly in a Classical Dressage or Hunter-Jumper barn. Your life will be absolutely miserable if you take personal offense everytime someone stops and stares. NH does seem to attract a fair number of fruitcakes. Fruitcakes that sermonize excessively. Other disciplines have their share as well, but it is a definitely trend in most barns to have at least one nutty Parelli disciple. When I was doing Parelli, I quietly played with my horse when no one else was around…some of the other Parelli folk were constantly telling others what to do, and why their opinions of NH were far superior to the somewhat negative opinions of the “traditionalists”. What kind of NHer are you?

If MORE people would use all these “unnatural” props to help desensitize their horses, they and their horses would be a lot better off. I mean really, there are so many threads over the years on the H/J forum alone about people who can’t even trail ride their Hunter because the horse has no idea what to do in an open space, if a deer pops out (remember the thread here about someone wanting to know how to get rid of the deer so they didn’t spook their horse?) or who wigs out just passing mailboxes or trashcans.

Playing games and using props in an arena doesn’t work for all horses. Jumpers are desensitized to all manner of jumps and bizarre arena props. You know how hard it is to get a horse to jump over a wall when they can’t see the other side? I used Parelli-style desensitization on my stock horse. He was good at it, and I think it contributed a lot to how easy he was to put under saddle. He’s a perfect trail horse. My Clydesdale? Not on your life. She didn’t understand those games, and they didn’t translate to the trail at all. She started trail riding nervous and sketchy, but trusted me (most of the time) and HOURS of trail riding turned her into a reliable horse. All those props are NOT the be all and end-all. And they annoy the crap out of people you share the arena with.

That is what those “unnatural” folks are doing - helping prepare their horses, in a fun way, to deal with whatever life throws at them. It’s your choice to make a safe horse or not. How you choose to do it is up to you. But to belittle someone because they choose “human toys” to do that…

Your posts have a superior tone. Particularly your attack on the Hunter/Jumpers. Consider why this may be a source of irritation to people who stick to different methods of training. Consider this particularly next time you encounter someone in real life and “suggest” some NH-inspired “solution” without knowing the horse at all. Consider keeping your mouth shut, and remember that every time you open it to provide unsolicited advice, people like the ones posting here get to mentally tick off yet ANOTHER NH disciple who is annoying and preachy.

[JB]

@rugbygirl;4223505

Well, playing with beach balls and stuff ISN’T “normal”. It’s unusual.

I agree it’s not normal. Or rather, it’s not common. But that doesn’t make it wrong, and that doesn’t give someone else the right to just put those people automatically into the cult-like following of any NH guru, which is what is going on here. That’s the issue I have. You (in general) don’t like how I train/play with my horses? That’s fine, I might not like how you do that either. But don’t label me a fruitbat, one of “those weird NH people”, and I won’t label you as snooty DQ

Playing games and using props in an arena doesn’t work for all horses. Jumpers are desensitized to all manner of jumps and bizarre arena props. You know how hard it is to get a horse to jump over a wall when they can’t see the other side?

A friend of mine used her kids play toys to help with her jumpers. The little plastic slides, the plastic sandboxes, the trucks and tricycles, you name it. Her horses were relieved to find “normal” jumps at shows :lol: I bet she’d never heard of NH or Parelli at that time. It’s all in the name of properly conditioning your horse for what life may throw his way. That’s all.

All those props are NOT the be all and end-all. And they annoy the crap out of people you share the arena with.

Nobody here is saying they are. I DO agree, that the culters do think they are necessary to help their horses, or at least thinking they are helping. I DO agree it’s rude to sling them all over a community ring. That was not the issue, the issue, as I read it, was that they were using those “human toys” to begin with. Very different issues.

Your posts have a superior tone. Particularly your attack on the Hunter/Jumpers. Consider why this may be a source of irritation to people who stick to different methods of training.

giggle I AM a Hunter rider One who happens to use a bit of NH (yes, I bought pool noodles to work with my TB mare, yes I have a big ol’ ball for her to chase), and one who happens to ride in a dressage saddle right now as a way of helping my horse. And, I still get all in my horse’s face when they need a “do NOT do that again” despite the fact that some seem to think that NH is all about kindness and a soft touch and never smacking.

Consider this particularly next time you encounter someone in real life and “suggest” some NH-inspired “solution” without knowing the horse at all.

:lol: you don’t know me at all

Consider keeping your mouth shut, and remember that every time you open it to provide unsolicited advice, people like the ones posting here get to mentally tick off yet ANOTHER NH disciple who is annoying and preachy.

You REALLY don’t know me at all

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=rugbygirl;4223505]
Well, playing with beach balls and stuff ISN’T “normal”. It’s unusual in a Classical Dressage or Hunter-Jumper barn.

Playing games and using props in an arena doesn’t work for all horses. Jumpers are desensitized to all manner of jumps and bizarre arena props. You know how hard it is to get a horse to jump over a wall when they can’t see the other side? I used Parelli-style desensitization on my stock horse. He was good at it, and I think it contributed a lot to how easy he was to put under saddle. He’s a perfect trail horse. My Clydesdale? Not on your life. She didn’t understand those games, and they didn’t translate to the trail at all. She started trail riding nervous and sketchy, but trusted me (most of the time) and HOURS of trail riding turned her into a reliable horse. All those props are NOT the be all and end-all. And they annoy the crap out of people you share the arena with.

Your posts have a superior tone. Particularly your attack on the Hunter/Jumpers. Consider why this may be a source of irritation to people who stick to different methods of training. Consider this particularly next time you encounter someone in real life and “suggest” some NH-inspired “solution” without knowing the horse at all. Consider keeping your mouth shut, and remember that every time you open it to provide unsolicited advice, people like the ones posting here get to mentally tick off yet ANOTHER NH disciple who is annoying and preachy.[/QUOTE]

I don’t find JB’s tone superior at all – certainly no more than most DQ’s attitude towards any sort of horse training that isn’t endorsed by AVG or their favorite ODG.

A horse doesn’t understand ANYTHING unless we explain it to them. That’s like saying, “well, my Clyde didn’t understand 20 m circles, so we didn’t do them.” What you are trying to do is teach them how to react in a non-flight, non-prey animal way when confronted with something new or scary – hence using objects that they likely never saw before or WILL see. So if your Clyde “didn’t get it,” that simply means you weren’t teaching the lesson correctly.

And this is where NH gets such a bad rap. It IS littered with alot of newbies who really aren’t sure when the end result should be – many of them fall in the catagory of “alittle knowledge being a dangerous thing.” But again – that doesn’t make BB, RH, Tom & Bill Dorrence, JL, CC, CA, PP, etc. less capable as horsemen, anymore than teaching a Training Level rider makes Stephan Peters “wrong.” Again, just because the teacher can’t get through to the student, or the student isn’t willing to do the work needed to become capable – neither make the METHOD faulty.

That’s like saying just because I can’t do algebra it must be flawed system.

As for sticks with plastic bags…my horses get chased with them all the time. However, when I bring the energy down, I can brush flies off of the horse with that same stick/bag. It doesn’t terrify them – they read the energy I project and follow that. Move away or stand quietly – it has nothing to do with the bag.

And that is how you teach a horse to react calmly and ** follow YOUR lead when unsure ** – and I don’t think anyone is denying there are many different ways to do this. But NH is one of them.

[system]

Horsemanship is Horsemanship–Period

On page 60 of dressage master Walter Zettl’s The Circle of Trust is a photograph with the caption “an effortless and confident collection into piaffe.”
The rider is Pat Parelli riding bareback with a bosal.

From what I’ve seen, most problems don’t stem from the masters. The problem stems from the unquestioning faith of the acolytes who see a flag or a flash noseband as “the answer.”

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=Houyhnhnm;4223888]
On page 60 of dressage master Walter Zettl’s The Circle of Trust is a photograph with the caption “an effortless and confident collection into piaffe.”
The rider is Pat Parelli riding bareback with a bosal.

From what I’ve seen, most problems don’t stem from the masters. The problem stems from the unquestioning faith of the acolytes who see a flag or a flash noseband as “the answer.”[/QUOTE]

Riiiiight. And in a magazine I saw an article BY Parelli, with an illustration of piaffe, ridden bareback, with a neck rope, back hollow, head PARALLEL to the ground, hocks out behind, that Mr. Parelli proffered as “correct.”

Now…desensitization. Great. My youngster was flagged by the colt starter and for the first few months I had him home, I flagged him as part of our ground-work warmup. But I never waived it around when there were other horses present which I didn’t know enough about to predict their reactions - a boundary that most novice PP people (i.e., “I got a stick and a video, I’m ready to train!!!”) don’t seem to acknowledge/respect.

For me, aside from the superior attitude of PP acolytes in general (This is the ONLY way. Oh you ride dressage, you ABUSE your horse, etc., ad infinitum), the biggest problem is that while Mr. Parelli himself has (or had) some real ability, a great part of that ability is his, or any experienced horse person’s, ability to ‘read’ the horse’s reactions and respond accordingly - something that most of his I-got-a-stick-and-a-video followers don’t have and can’t gain from their video.

I’ve been on trail rides with PP followers who actually RIDE and oh my! what a to do about going through gates, mention of squeeze game, etc., etc. Whereas my former hunter/at that time dressage horse (now retired), worked gates just fine. He knew how to leg yield and how to do turns on the forehand and turns on the haunches - standard training - gates - no problem. No squeeze game needed. I’ve taken my youngster out on a few trail rides. Walked up to his first gate, I rode him parallel, leg yielded him over, opened gate, went through. Up to that time, he’d never worked a gate. Big freaking deal! No squeeze game. Different strokes. People want to do Parelli, fine with me. Just don’t try to proselytize ME. My colt starter was a Hunt/Brannaman disciple. 99% of what is now labled “NH” - whether Parelli or otherwise - is just old time common sense traditional horsemanship given a new label and fancy marketing, much to PP monetary benefit. A guy’s gotta make a living… but not off me. LOL

[JB]

@Kyzteke;4223879

I don’t find JB’s tone superior at all – certainly no more than most DQ’s attitude towards any sort of horse training that isn’t endorsed by AVG or their favorite ODG.

Thank you.

I’m an equal opportunity “basher”. I don’t care what discipline it is, if there’s something that’s just silly, well, it’s just silly. But by the same token I do NOT bash anything that is not what I do, different from what I was taught, different from what I do now.

There are WP folks who condemn Dressage because all they see is someone with gasp 2 bits and big spurs and have their horse’s heads cranked in with what MUST be 20lb of pressure. There are Dressage folks who rag all day long on WP riders because their horse won’t work “properly” off bit pressure. They are BOTH wrong in saying what they say, because their comments are based on not understanding what it is they are bashing. That is my whole point - much of what has been said by the NH-bashers on this thread has been obviously based in ignorance, and that’s where I have the problem. It’s a separate issue from whether or not whatever someone else is doing is causing a safety issue for you and your horse, or other horses/people. That isn’t relegated to those dreaded NH people. How about the nutcases in the Hunter warmup rings who are schooling flying changes using the whole ring, making everyone else get out of their way? How about the barrel racer who wants to practice runs in your dressage ring? How about the DQ who just has to lunge her horse for 45 minutes before riding, in the middle of “my” ring with a jump course set up over which I’m trying to school? There are all sorts of those people out there, across all disciplines.

You don’t like NH? Fine, I really don’t care. But it’s really a shame that the attitude of NH=nutcase makes one totally against anything NH has to offer, which is some really good stuff. I know several people who think Dressage is all about snotty people with big, expensive horses that had to be imported from Germany to do well, because that’s what they’ve been exposed to, and think that dressage has nothing to offer them because of that.

Goes both ways ya know.

[system]

Parelli and the Piaffe

[QUOTE=Sandy M;4223976]
Riiiiight. And in a magazine I saw an article BY Parelli, with an illustration of piaffe, ridden bareback, with a neck rope, back hollow, head PARALLEL to the ground, hocks out behind, that Mr. Parelli proffered as “correct.”[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry, but this response puzzles me since I was referring to a photo being analyzed by a recognized dressage expert not a photo being hyped by a non-dressage-based NH guru. It certainly was NOT my intention to suggest Parelli is a dressage expert, but I do think Zettl can recognize a correct piaffe when he sees one.

Could you post the title/pub info on the article to which you refer? I’d love to compare the photos because the one I’m staring at in the Zettl book shows distinct lowering of the haunches and nice flexion.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=JB;4224265]

I know several people who think Dressage is all about snotty people with big, expensive horses that had to be imported from Germany to do well, because that’s what they’ve been exposed to, and think that dressage has nothing to offer them because of that.

Goes both ways ya know.[/QUOTE]

lol!! Then I’d sure confuse the h-e-doublehockeysticks out of 'em with my current dressage prospect: a 16.2 h.h. Araloosa. So far, the judges have liked him a lot.

But… I come from a background of saddleseat (briefly), hunt seat, trail riding, western pleasure in the days when pleasure horses went in the “up the bridle” California frame with braided reins and a romel, and a clear diagonal jog and 3-beat lope were also necessary; I evented through Prelim/CTs at Intermediate (17 years), jumpers to 4’6", trail rode ALWAYS, including competitive obstacle trail, have ridden in the hunt field, have done a little reining and cutting, and now “do dressage.” I don’t condemn anyone but abusers in any discipline (though, granted, what one terms abuse can sometimes be subjective - as witness the PP types who call ALL dressage abusive, though, of course, they have to change their tune now that PP and LP have sudden discovered maybe dressage isn’t so bad after all if they can make a buck off it).

But really, the carrot-stickers need to BACK OFF. If they’ll leave me alone, I’ll leave them alone. If they don’t condemn me for my traditional (non-abusive) ways, I won’t condemn them and I’ll try, really TRY, not to giggle at all the game playing without ever riding their horses. Their horse, they can do what they want. They just need to give me the same courtesy.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=Houyhnhnm;4224299]
I’m sorry, but this response puzzles me since I was referring to a photo being analyzed by a recognized dressage expert not a photo being hyped by a non-dressage-based NH guru. It certainly was NOT my intention to suggest Parelli is a dressage expert, but I do think Zettl can recognize a correct piaffe when he sees one.

Could you post the title/pub info on the article to which you refer? I’d love to compare the photos because the one I’m staring at in the Zettl book shows distinct lowering of the haunches and nice flexion.[/QUOTE]

I’m sure it is NOT the same picture. I guess I’m just saying that because, under Mr. Zettl’s tutelage, PP lucked into a decent piaffe/passage, it doesn’t mean that PP knows what he’s doing vis-a-vis dressage, especially after the years of PP and LP condeming dressage in no uncertain terms. I’ve gotten nice passage/piaffe transitions on schoolmasters, coached by the horses’ owners/trainers, but I am in no way qualified to train a horse in those exercises/movements.

The Parellis co-opted the O’Connors briefly, but one hears little, if anything, of that connection anymore, now that the PPs have gotten their money out of it,* and the cynic in me has to think that they have latched on to Herr Zettl in the same manner and that he, who always seems to be one who wants to help people with their horses, is happy to help the Parellis (who up until this little connection seemed to maintain that they knew all that it was necessary to know about horse training…and it didn’t involve dressage).

The magazine with the picture was a local (California) freebie that was rife with articles by NH types. I will concede that it probably pre-dates their Zettl connection/temporary conversion.

*And I recall a PH article by David O’Connor during that Parelli connection that outlined some roundpen work that was totally traditional in terms of lungeing, yet was credited to the Parellis.

[system]

“Natural Horsemanship” there’s one in every bunch…

Parelli is a marketing genius & we’re all jealous (NOT)

[Sandy_M]

@Melodye Sweetin;4224371

Parelli is a marketing genius & we’re all jealous (NOT)

ROFLOL. Back in the '70s, before Monty Roberts had published his questionable memoir, I had an Appy gelding that was very sweet, easy to handle, Intermediate level eventer, great trail horse, etc., etc. But if you turned him out in a large area (as opposed to just in his stall/paddock set up), he didn’t want to get caught. It was a game to him, and he wanted you (me!) to play. I usually just got a handful of pellets/grain/a carrot and caught him easily enough. No biggie. One day, however, I thought I really should do something about it - what if I fell off on cross-country - would he consider my attempts to catch him part of the “game?” I tried a few tactics to little avail and he was having a good old time. SO…I turned my back on him and walked away, then stopped and stood with my back to him. In less than 3 minutes, his nose was touching my shoulder!! JOIN UP!! DAMN!!! and I NEVER thought to MARKET my wondeful technique. I could be, if not rich, at least comfortably well off!! An NH guru!!! ;o)

[JB]

@Sandy M;4224309

But really, the carrot-stickers need to BACK OFF. If they’ll leave me alone, I’ll leave them alone. If they don’t condemn me for my traditional (non-abusive) ways, I won’t condemn them and I’ll try, really TRY, not to giggle at all the game playing without ever riding their horses. Their horse, they can do what they want. They just need to give me the same courtesy.

Agreed!

And yeah, you’d really have some of them scratching their heads with that thar appyloosa you have there

[rugbygirl]

A horse doesn’t understand ANYTHING unless we explain it to them. That’s like saying, “well, my Clyde didn’t understand 20 m circles, so we didn’t do them.”

No, it isn’t. It’s like saying “I tried one method of teaching 20 m circles, and it didn’t work, so I tried another. Which did work. Which WASN’T part of a pre-packaged NH program.”

What you are trying to do is teach them how to react in a non-flight, non-prey animal way when confronted with something new or scary – hence using objects that they likely never saw before or WILL see.

Not all horses are a clean slate. You often don’t know what’s been used before you got the horse. I do know that playing “The Friendly Game” ™ with bizarre objects was brutally ineffective with that mare. So I “explained” scary things to her another way. Which happened to involve me riding her over miles of trails. My stock horse WAS a clean slate. “The Friendly Game” ™ and the vast majority of the other techniques in Levels 1 and 2 worked extremely well on him.

So if your Clyde “didn’t get it,” that simply means you weren’t teaching the lesson correctly

I’ll point this out with the assertion that I am not in the least “angry”. That’s the precise opinion that infuriates non-devotees. Yes, often the rider is at fault…but continuing the same approach and expecting a different result is bad training, not to mention the definition of insanity. Sometimes you need to change the method/lesson. That’s one of the higher concepts in Parelli that people very often ignore. Sometimes you have to skip the Yo-Yo Game ™ because it just doesn’t work. Sometimes you have to abandon the idea of the “Savvy String” ™ because it terrifies your horse and a light tap with a Dressage whip works better. You can’t assume that everyone who says “I tried the Seven Games ™ but they just didn’t work” did it wrong. Sometimes it really JUST DIDN’T WORK for that handler and horse.

Correcting people’s misconceptions, that’s different…like whenever someone complains about how Parelli discourages riding…well, that’s just false. You can’t get your real Level 1 without riding! That’s a piece of misinformation though…not a judgment call on my part about how a person USED the program and the opinion they developed.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Houyhnhnm;4224299]
I’m sorry, but this response puzzles me since I was referring to a photo being analyzed by a recognized dressage expert not a photo being hyped by a non-dressage-based NH guru. It certainly was NOT my intention to suggest Parelli is a dressage expert, but I do think Zettl can recognize a correct piaffe when he sees one.

Could you post the title/pub info on the article to which you refer? I’d love to compare the photos because the one I’m staring at in the Zettl book shows distinct lowering of the haunches and nice flexion.[/QUOTE]

I saw several years ago, in two different Parelli demonstrations we went to with our local 4H kids, Pat Parelli himself, on a sorrel horse, doing some kind of piaffe, also hollow backed and hocks trailing behind and happily smiling and doing it here and there again and again, all thru two hours.
That horse never, once, lowered his hocks and rocked his weight back, but was turning around in the middle, like a coke bottle spinning, but doing some kind of dance that was supposed to be piaffe.
I would not be surprised if there are some pictures of that.:winkgrin:

[rugbygirl]

^^ that Piaffe thing is in the intro to the Level 1 DVDs.

He relates Piaffe entirely to bending…hence the side-bending movement.

It looked really neat, but they DID only show a head-on view of it…:lol: I think it wasn’t actually supposed to be a Piaffe, but people assumed it was.

[mp]

[QUOTE=rugbygirl;4224416]

Not all horses are a clean slate. You often don’t know what’s been used before you got the horse. I do know that playing “The Friendly Game” ™ with bizarre objects was brutally ineffective with that mare. [/QUOTE]

And if a horse has been handled well, the games can be if not exactly a waste of time, then at least unnecessary. Prospective buyer was a Parelli person (I am not). She wanted to try some of the games with my horse. Okey dokey.

Horse followed all cues and practically snoozed through the Friendly Game. Parelli person was ay-mazed. Well, that’s probably because I’d been playing my version of the Games with her since she was born. It’s called training. :lol:

[rugbygirl]

O for sure.

The problem with the games, on a non-clean-slater, is that by necessity of the whole “home study” they are really clear and specific about which cues to use. They are also rather strict in teaching body position.

It’s not that the cues used in Parelli are “wrong”…just that a well-trained horse might be used to something else. And why change? If they are responding to pressure, etc…why switch it up to a swinging rope? If a horse has been trained to drive (in harness) you need to see that “the driving game” needs to be adapted from the DVDs to reflect the well-ingrained cues. Waving the carrot stick to yield the forequarters might not work…you might get a sudden burst of speed.

See, some horses can totally adapt. They get the idea or “oh hey, that savvy string is just the same a when I get tapped on the butt! Giddy up!” whereas some horses seem to be more…literal. Bear in mind that this is my vast experience of three horses talking, but the Clydesdale is kinda thick. You don’t want to use inconsistent cues. It makes her nervous. The stock horse would just adapt, he was a bit quicker on the uptake.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=rugbygirl;4224416]

Not all horses are a clean slate. You often don’t know what’s been used before you got the horse. [/QUOTE]

It doesn’t matter if they are a clean slate or not. First, if someone who has some horse training experience listens to any of the NH guys, it become apparent that much (most) of the stuff they do is very similar if not identical.

They may not call it the same name or do them in the same order, but the stuff is the same.

So you can tweak and modify things to fit the horse – JUST LIKE ANY OTHER TRAINING SYSTEM. I’ve never found it not to work – and I’ve used it on plenty more than 3 horses.

Some things bother some horses more than others, but that is part of the whole point of the FOUNDATION of NH – teach the horse not to be bothered by stuff.

Of course, there is much more to it, and THAT is something the beginner PP or CA devotee or whoever just don’t get. They get stuck on that 7 Games/groundwork stuff (probably because most of the people can’t really ride, and 1000 hrs. of the “Friendly Game” won’t fix that…) and never realize there is suppose to be something past that.

Again, when you have to share a work space with another horseperson, courtesy should prevail. As JB said, that should be the rule no matter what discipline you belong to.

I’ve met nutcases and true horsemen(women) in EVERY discipline…you simply can’t blame the method.

I’m sure the NH people sit there and scratch their heads over the DQ lunging a horse in sidereins for 20 minutes…because they don’t realize what the trainer is trying to accomplish. Maybe some communication between parties is what is needed.

Personally, I will happily steal from any trainer I find effective and sympathetic to the horse…so for me, that would leave out AVG, but would include WAZ…PP connection and all.

[Antaeus]

Kyzteke - Well said!

[rugbygirl]

So you can tweak and modify things to fit the horse – JUST LIKE ANY OTHER TRAINING SYSTEM. I’ve never found it not to work – and I’ve used it on plenty more than 3 horses.

So why insist on calling it Natural Horsemanship? If you’re borrowing from a variety of places (which I think most successful horsepeople do) and playing with a bunch of fundamental concepts, then you’re not following a rigid program and NONE of the comments apply to you. :rolleyes: