How would you explain/describe natural horsemanship? and do you use any NH methods? If you dislike it then please explain me or if you have another opinion please post it as well:)
Who are some horsemen/women you feel are good to learn from (natural horsemanship or traditional) ?
Who do you “stay away” from?
I like a good horseman whether its “natural horsemanship” or just a good trainer. I’m sure I do use natural horsemanship methods but I copy trainers whose methods work best for me and the horse I’m working with at the moment.
I dislike Parelli and Clinton Anderson, I do like Warwick Schiller. He has better timing and takes his time vs the other two.
The biggest thing I hate in natural horsemanship is the horse turning to face you and shaking the lead rope to back up. Its just a PITA to untrain and really not necessary.
One of the worst things about the modern age, imo, is the access to information without guidance. It is so easy to watch a video on youtube, and think that we can do the same thing with our horse. I love youtube for learning how to fix my carpet cleaner, but horses are are so unique and individuals that watching on a training does on line really is difficult. There are so many nuisances to watching horse body language and training that it is impossible to really learn from them. Not that you can’t learn something from almost any trainer, but you really have to know what you are looking for.
If you are looking for help in training your horse, look in your area for an actual person. They may not have a big name or be known nationally but they can really help you learn. I have just seen so many people that don’t know what they are doing, but they saw some big trainer do it in a video so they think they know all there is to training.
My favorite trainer is one that worked with me for a few years. Now I don’t buy into everything that he says but he really helped me to learn. He watched me working with horses and told me what he saw. That helped me. My position was awful, and he helped me realize that. Not that I didn’t know how my position should have been, but he had eyes on the ground and could correct me. He helped me with things I was doing on the ground. Again, even though I knew what I wanted to be doing, he was eyes outside of myself that could point out what I was and was not doing well. That is something you just can not get from a video.
We did disagree about somethings. That was also a learning opportunity for me as I had to defend my position which really helped me to think about what I believed what I believed.
I always feel the need to chime in on these threads. I sent my dressage horse to a NH trainer on the advice of a quality dressage trainer. NH uses horse behavior and keen observation of said behavior to guide “timing” of corrections and exercises/training methods. As someone who has worked with quite a few very successful dressage trainers/riders/judges, very very few of them have the timing of a quality NH trainer. However, you have to search for a quality NH trainer, IMO.
NH seeks to build confidence and hone mental learning skills in a horse. I think it teaches a horse “how to learn” and horses learn that learning is fun and part of their job. In dressage I can say that yes, learning is integral to a dressage horse’s job. A horse who expects something new regularly and is confident about that will excel better than a horse who dislikes being pushed outside of it’s comfort zone and gets upset about it.
Many NH people have trained with either Parelli or Anderson, but most quality ones I know have rejected their marketing and business approaches while recognizing the strength of their systems. Most have parted ways under less than positive circumstances, but their own training uses their techniques. So I would not avoid people who have trained under Parelli or Anderson systems. I can say it’s like dressage…anyone can hang out a shingle and say the studies with so and so, but you have to meet with them and do your homework before working with them or sending a horse to them. There are bunches of dressage trainers I would not give money to.
My horse was very reactive and very fear driven, and this NH training helped him tremendously. I still use many of the exercises regularly, exercises that focus him. Many of these exercises are so familiar to him that they populate his “comfort zone” when he is upset, and remind him that he can work and listen when he is very upset. They get him into that working mood because he derives confidence from completing them. I’ll also add that he’s extremely smart and mental stimulation works very well for him.
Horses are often taught to turn and face you, but there’s a reason for that. My horse understands not to turn and face me on the longe until I signal it. Also, yes, I use shaking the lead rope to back up. It’s necessary when I want him to back up while standing 4 feet away. Most people apply physical pressure to the nose of the halter or to the horse’s chest to make them back up. I think most horses can easily learn that a wiggling rope means back up, and that moving your arm to the right or left tells the horse to move to the right or left without making contact. The point is that without physical contact, the horse has to pay attention to the handler and follow a learned response. I’m at a loss to understand why these actions are such a PITA and not a convenient tool. Sure, you can always apply physical pressure if you want - little thought involved for the horse!
That’s really good advice.
It reminds me of something Rex Peterson said in a clinic I attended. Someone asked him if he had considered writing a book about trick training, to explain how he does what he does in the movies. He replied that people can get themselves into trouble easily, particularly when it comes to determining how to respond when something doesn’t go like you think it should. That’s why he said he does clinics but not books or how-to videos.
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IMO Natural Horsemanship is just horsemanship rebranded. NH has become a catch all type of term, but it is, fundamentally, some principles that have been around a long time. Some of these guys, Parelli, CA, etc, have repackaged those fundamentals and turned it into their own sort of dog n’ pony show. I haven’t paid much attention to Parelli, admittedly, he always struck me as a bit of a hack. CA, to his very minimal credit, does say some things that make sense. However, what he says that could benefit you isn’t groundbreaking or revolutionary. They’re principles a lot of trainers and horsefolk worth their salt already know and would share with you just the same. The rest of his schtick, though, is enough to turn me off. The ego, the snark, the oftentimes predatory behaviour towards horses… No thanks.
I’ll agree and disagree that age of technology we live in provides easy access to unsupervised instruction. It does, that’s not untrue. However, I don’t think the existence of that information is to blame. It’s not bad. The responsibility resides with the provider as well as the consumer. Trainers (or “trainers”) providing material online, whether it’s free or through a subscription, should be reminding their audience that online instruction doesn’t replace in person instruction. On the reverse side of the coin, their audience should be wary enough not to read or watch something and take it as gospel.
Personally, I take lessons from a couple different trainers. Your DVD or Youtube video can’t come out to the arena with you and help you with any road blocks live and in person. Having an experienced, knowledgeable trainer able to work with you and your horse on a consistent basis will do a lot more for you than any other form of instruction. With that being said, I do still watch and read online and I do own some DVD sets. I’ll take away what may work for me and leave what I imagine won’t. I’ll consider what I’ve learned from the trainers I work with and how it may relate to what I’m reading or watching. Sometimes it can bridge the gap between the two. Similarly to taking a clinic, you may get some “a-ha!” moments through a trainer explaining something in their own words.
There’s no one right way. There are ways of accomplishing something, depending on your goals, that may work better than other styles. However, a lot of these guys and gals have developed their methods through trial and error. Of course, you want to minimize the amount of error, but no one is infallible. I think plenty of trainers, too, will admit that they would do over some of the ways they’ve started horses in the past because they made mistakes, or their style has changed, or whatever. Horse training and riding is a non-stop learning experience. It’s not necessarily about “perfect”, it’s about “better”. I respect trainers and horsefolk who at least appear to be rather humble. They’ll admit fault.
For myself, I’m sure there are mistakes I make with my horse. I’m no professional. My timing and feel is probably decent, my riding is fair enough IMO, but who’s to really say. Regardless, I try every day to improve my riding, my understanding, and try to look for advancement in my horse. There are some things I know need work, sometimes it does my head in a little thinking of how to remedy the issue. I may take some thing to the barn, a bit of info or an exercise from somewhere, and test it out. I try and find what works for me.
Some of the folks I like… Buck Brannaman, Todd Bergen, Les Voght, Al Dunning, Warwick Schiller, Sandy Collier, Nick Dowers. Once again, I take what I think works, I leave what I imagine won’t.
It’s similar to Martha Stewart. She’s not doing anying terribly unique. What’s she’s done is market the kind of stuff everyone’s grandmother has been doing since the age of 8.
I like Rick Gore but I think (almost) everyone on here thinks he is next to Satan. I can understand him and his training, I agree with him almost %100 of the time. I don’t do everything he says (sometimes I can’t and other times just don’t) but, I do listen. His horses are so lively and happy. I can say my horse and I are a lot better after using his methods. My mom is one of those “get a bigger bit and show her who is boss” kind of person and it just doesn’t work. I decided not to listen to my mom and do it my way and she is way better than before. I’m currently training her under saddle and it is going great. I’m bitless with no plans to ever use a bit on her and I don’t see why I would ever need to. I think NH is about body language, pressure, release, and timing. My horse is not trained to face me all the time as I see no point in that. I don’t know of any you should really stay away from however I don’t know many at all. Just Perelli, Clinton, Warwick, and Rick.
Well said J-Lu and bitranchy. J-Lu does a really nice job of explaining how this type of training teaches a horse to learn, to look for the right answer, instead of reacting senselessly every time he is pushed out of his comfort zone.
When the horse turns to face you, he is disengaging his hindquarters and moving them away from you - it’s a basic safety feature - he can’t kick you if you want to approach him. In horse language, turning the hindquarters towards another horse or a person is a threat. If you go to catch a horse in a stall or paddock, or anywhere, you want the horse to shift the hindquarters away from you so you can safely put a halter on or attach a lead rope.
Being able to move a horse’s body around from a distance comes in very handy. I was bringing two horses out of the barn the other day and saw that I had forgotten to unplug an extension cord that went across the path. I was able to stop them and have them both back up a few steps by shaking the rope so I could reach the plug. I frequently lead two (sometimes three) horses at a time and getting through gates etc makes it necessary to have horses that are really well trained and responsive to small cues. If one or the other thinks about crowding me I can immediately move them back out of my space.
“Natural horsemanship” is an oxymoron. There is NOTHING natural about a prey animal allowing a member of the World’s Most Successful Predator Species to climb on it’s back.
If by NH you mean using the horse’s instinctive behaviors as a guideline to be used in altering equine behavior then maybe there’s a “there” there. That means those behaviors we favor we reinforce; those that we disfavor we suppress; and those that are neutral we ignore. This approach seems to hold the best chance for overall success.
Anybody with a rope, a plastic bag on a stick, or a slick presentation using arcane terminology should be avoided like the plague. The shape of their hat, accent, or saddle type is also largely irrelevant.
How do you know an “NH trainer” is any good? You look both at the product they turn out and you watch them on more than one occasion work the horse. This is a “doing art” so you must watch them “do.” And then you must ride the horse afterwards. If the trainer accomplished the goals set when the horse was delivered to them and did not create problems that were not there when the that happened then that’s the Gold Standard.
What we call it is an irrelevancy.
G.
Pretty much what others say … Also any given trainer should have something other than a one size fits all approach. AND a trainer who just takes the horse and does stuff, and doesn’t really coach the owner through it, is worthless IMO. They need to realize that the average owner has NOT worked with a lot of horses or spent thousands of hours doing horse stuff. Most of us do not have that sense of timing, nor access to a lot of horses to learn from.
I do some NH with my horse, and have gone to a few clinics. My biggest fear is that I’ll use the methods and screw things up (applies specifically to trailer training in my case.) And to be honest, I often feel worthless about my skills because I’ve learned all I don’t know.
These days, the term “natural horsemanship” is so often thrown around by so many different people that, in my opinion, it has become meaningless. I can, however, give you some of the characteristics of trainers I like to work with, whether they consider themselves “natural horsemanship” trainers or not.
No drama, no temper, no fussing and fighting with the horse.
Flexible in approach. Willing and able to change what he’s doing to suit the needs of the individual horse.
Feel and timing. Focused on and in tune with the horse, so cues are applied at the right time and undesirable responses are channeled into more productive responses before they get out of hand. (This is my biggest weakness, I think.)
Always honest with the horse and consistent in communication and reward.
I like that one.
NH is just realizing the it’s easier to get the horse to want to do something you ask then force compliance. Of course, that requires a working brain in the human plus keen observation of the way the horse reacts, common sense, time and patience which makes it difficult for many people. Something often overcome by packaging and selling these things in fancy " systems" to humans who lack them.
There is good horsemanship and there is bad horsemanship. I prefer to use good horsemanship.
I HATE having a horse that won’t turn to face you. It is something that takes only minutes to teach. You don’t have to teach it again. You don’t have to put them in a round yard every day to do it over and over again. That is because horses learn things in minutes. It takes a lifetime to teach the rider!
The horse only faces you when being called to be caught. After that it is taught to stand still and on the lunge they are taught to halt out on the circle.
No you don’t need to wiggle the lead rope to ask a horse to back. Mine are taught initially to back with a thumb on the chest.and the word back. You always use 2 signals as when in the float you want them to back out one at a time. Next they are taught to back with a tug on the tail and the word back and usually their name for self loading and then unloading in the float.
Next they are taught to back with waving my finger side to side and the word back. This is handy when you are on a horse and want to back another horse away from a gate to go through it.
They also know the word Get. Which means Get away from the gate altogether if I want to take a car through, but usually working with one horse and not wanting the other one near me.
Check out John Chatterton.
I’ve seen a lot go on under the name of natural horsemanship that is neither natural, nor good horsemanship. I don’t even like to use the term natural horsemanship to describe good horsemanship, because of the mind pictures I get when I hear that term, and really, what is natural about a horse to human relationship? Nothing?
My rule of thumb is if it’s humane and kind to the horse and you’re accomplishing something, then it’s fine. Some methods that work for one person won’t work for another one.
I don’t like Clinton Anderson at all. Not even a little. I’m not a big fan of Parelli either, I just don’t think his methods make much sense and they don’t seem very practical. But I’m okay with his existence because he’s nice to his horses.
I do like Monty Roberts, Steve Irwin, and John Lyons. On the English side, as I’m an English rider, I like to watch Elisa Wallace work with her horses, but she doesn’t really have a method she teaches. It’s a pity there aren’t many English clinicians like there are western.
You know how to gauge if a technique, no matter the name, is good to teach horses?
Listen to the horses, how they respond.
If your wiggling a rope has horse’s heads up and running back, is that what you want your horses to do every time you wiggle a rope, or is it merely stepping back until you say stop?
If you learn to teach and ask horses with light signals, why SHOUT! to teach or ask?
Let that be your measure.
Much of NH touted out there is more of the SHOUT! first, think later.
Makes more sense to ask first, shout the rare time it is an emergency or your horse is just not listening.
One example, you can halterbreak a colt tying it to a post and letting it fight it out being tied for that first time scary go round.
Or you can teach a horse to give to a rope for five minutes on hand, then rope wrapped around the post with some give by you, then finally, once you are sure horse knows to give well, tie it.
Stand there, then let it go for that day.
Next day a bit longer, work to what the horse can do without fretting.
The same with any other, teach a horse to back by asking, don’t start by demanding and pushing into scaring it backwards with head up and scrambling confused?
Teach one step at the time figuratively, teach in a way the horse understands you want it to move first, then which way to move, etc., always considerate that the horse is trying with you until it gets it.
You don’t teach a kid 2+2=4 by asking what is 2+2 and yelling and scaring it more and more at every response until it happens to come with 4?
I come from a riding discipline and instructors that, not being without faults, always in their own way put horses absolutely first, had centuries of doing that.
Respect for horses and their ability to work with you foremost.
If anyone was seen wiggling ropes or slapping horses around with them to make them move, jerking around with reins with horses resisting all over the place, you would have seen smoke come out of their ears and be sent to help in the kitchen until you had thought about what you were doing before being let close to a horse again, or flat told to leave the riding programs.
For some today, doing all that passes for standard instruction?
Different strokes, your horses, whatever floats your boats.
Long before there was NH there was horsemanship. Anyone who spent a lot of time in an English yard learned quickly that there is this sort of horse, and that sort of horse, and some in between. They learned that there are safe and sensible ways of doing things, not because we’ve always done it that way, but because they are safe and sensible.
There are English clinicians, but they don’t market themselves as Horsemanship clinicians. They are the instructor advising a student to take the reins down over he horse’s head when leading. The one explaining why we run stirrups up. Why a led horse’s head should be at your shoulder, or just a little ahead, NOT behind you. And if your instructor isn’t advising you on warming up, and cooling out your horse, get a new instructor. 
John Lyons is the only "so called " NH clinician that I have looked into and have used his training methods with much success.
It isn’t based on anything but common sense and taking the time to see when your horse is responding, understanding and then moving on in the training.
Simple and effective and no special stuff involved . The biggest and most important thing was putting the safety of horse and human above all else.
Avoid CA and PP. listen to Ray hunt, buck brannaman
You are not leading the horse if the horse’s head is in front of you or at your shoulder. The horse is leading you, or you are walking in tandem. While leading, you want the horse at least 4’ away from you and about 45 degrees from next to you and directly behind you.
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