I would agree with this post if it started “thats where they are wrong.” The poster you are responding to is describing fairly inexperienced horse owners who get into trouble precisely because they don’t understand they are training at every moment they are at the barn. The poster is not describing how a professional trainer works.
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I was wondering why people hated the “wiggle”, but this makes sense. When I do it the rope never comes close to hitting her chin, the clip just bounces on the halter ring once or twice, and that is the cue. I just flick my wrist a little, like I’m shooing away a fly. She actually learned the hand cue too, now I can “shoo her away” (Make her back with just a wave of the hand) off lead too. That is useful during feeding time in winter :lol:
Besides the wiggle, and its gentler sister, the flick, what do people do to signal the horse to back or move away while on the lead rope?
You, and Palm Beach, both note the single most important principle of horse handling:
The horse is always learning, even if you are not teaching!!!
Just where the horse walks in relation to you or how you hold the lead shank or the commands that you use while leading can vary depending on what kind of overall training program you run. There are some general principles, like never wrap anything attached to a horse around any part of your body, but once you get beyond a few genuine safety issues much of the program is what works for the horse/rider pair.
As you ride the horse under you so also do you lead the horse at the other end of the rope!!!
On size does not fit all.
G.
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This is one thing that’s been bugging me about this thread. Way back in the dark ages on this forum, I got into a disagreement with Thomas1 (I think), a very experienced horseman and crochety old man. And I came up with the aphorism that “You have to have experiences to have experience.”
I think that applies here. Most of the people who are confidently asserting “truths” have handled hundreds or thousands of horses over the course many years. Many of them have made the (now possibly debunked) requisite 10,000 hours to become really good at something. They have a system and a good rationale for using it.
Most of the rest of us? Well, no we don’t, and we’re not likely to get there. I’d hope that the more experienced could cut us a little slack, just as I look up to them.
I’ve been back in horse-dom for 11 years, after a 25 year break, and have extensive handling experience (>100 hours) with exactly 3 horses, and 2 of them died years ago, so it’s mostly been my mare. My total “horse time” per year runs maybe 600 hours. My mare came to me with good basic ground manners, but she’s challenging for me at times. I’d love to do more than the occasional clinic here and there; the rest of my life is a limiting factor. (I must be doing something right, though, because compared to most horses in most barns I’ve boarded at, her manners have been well above average.)
How about asking the horse to move rearwards. Handler says “Back”…you know…like use the voice.
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Generally works with my mare, though she seems to think that back means “back one step.” unless I move right into her space. Which is good, I guess, in terms of control, but I sound sort of like a demented chicken saying “back back back back” … (However, to get a treat she will back how ever many number of steps are needed to be about 3 feet back when I say “back” only once. She can be nosey about treats otherwise. She’s smarter than I am, sometimes…)
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Once you get the concept of starting small and escalating you can dial down to any tiny cue you want. With the caveat that you need the horse focused on you for the tiny cues to work and that if the horse has a strong preference to do something else at that moment you will need to scale up.
At this point I rarely have to put any pressure on the halter unless maresy is having a buck n run blowup on a frosty day. What i find interesting is how far out of my forcefield i can move her before she stops listening.
She will go back about ten paces maximum on voice cue at liberty and then it’s like I’m too far away to control her and I have to follow her. As far as cue, body language finger wiggle voice cue as needed. Most of the time we are improvising a bit.
Once I was talking to my coach about a new rider who was having trouble with ground work because she slouched. I said i should tell her to do belly dance chest pops, basically pop her boobs at the horse. Later I wondered if that was true or if I was just bs-ing. I went into that horse’s stall and did some chest pops at him and he scuttled backwards!
Gave me some ideas for liberty performance dancing with the horse!
Anyhow I think there’s something important in the mix about communicating intention. You don’t want the horse hardwired to fly back mindlessly at one given cue every single time because sooner or later that will cause an accident.
Saying all this has just led me to a realization.
I have a sweet beginner friend who was getting into tangles with her horse. I could take him in hand and he would be fine with me but she could never quite see what I was doing and copy me.
She went to a very basic level young NH trainer who isn’t doing anything egregiously wrong, but is far less advanced than me in what his horses do on the ground.
I think because he is so basic and makes such loud big moves, my friend can see and copy. She has been learning a lot and that’s great.
But sitting here just now trying to explain how I cue a horse to back made me realize why it is so hard for me to teach a newbie one basic cue for each movement because it is more like a dance.
I don’t have any trouble with most strange horses. Though I haven’t ever had to handle one that wasn’t halter broke at least. If you want them to back you lift your hand, step into them, poke them in the chest lightly if that doesn’t work, whatever it takes. I guess I just assume they basically know what I’m asking, and if not, they will learn.
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The (widely disliked) Parelli popularized the lead rope wiggling “game” with the chin bopping clip. What most of his followers never got, and he didn’t clear up, is that you’re supposed to gradually back off on that cue until the horse backs up when you lift the lead. Most horses will do something if you annoy them enough.
I have a young friend who is a working student in the Wellington area. She’s been there about a month. It’s been a real eye-opener being around all those expensive horses who are highly trained, except apparently when it comes to ground manners. She calls and tells me about being dragged around when she tries to lead some of them in and out or asks them to stand. When I suggested that she throw some training in, she led me to believe she wasn’t supposed to do that. That’s really sad. My conclusion is there are giant holes in training because too many people are tolerating bad behavior so they been trained to do that. I guess it’s not something that bothers the owners. Sounds like a lot of them don’t do much on the ground.
I remember trainer John Lyons responding to the notion that stallions can’t be trained. It may take 10 times the effort but it certainly can be done. Scribbler says it: if they don’t know what you are asking they will learn.
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I teach horses to back when I point a finger at their chest.
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I have a friend in the same position and the horse owners even resent the fact that she’s more knowledgeable than they are. I mean, after all, she’s just the hired help.
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I do that too, but I don’t rely exclusively on voice commands when I ride, and like having multiple options on the ground as well for safety reasons.
I do a little “shoo” motion and she will back, but she is missing one eye so it wont work from one side 
But with a hand motion, lead rope jiggle, or voice cue in the arsenal I can get a “back” in any situation.
I am cracking up at the mental image of the boob pop :lol:
I am newer to horses, but have decades of dog training experience, and I apply the same concept, stay calm, be consistent, use the smallest cues possible, and keep it positive. Bella knows if she doesn’t respond to the first cue I will ask again, then escalate from there. If she doesn’t do it the first time I assume it was me and try to clarify my ask. I think people that jump from “ask” to “TELL” can create those reactive horses that scuttle back 20 feet at the slightest movement of the lead rope. Whereas a horse that knows they will be treated calmly and fairly can take a second to question “did you really ask me to back or were you just moving your hand?”.
I know Bella loves her ground work training, she loves learning tricks and is very engaged and curious when we are working together. She was not like that when I first got her, so I think this method is working for her. She is great for the farrier, vet, and anyone that needs to handle her. Even when she was going through a painful eye treatment she was respectful and safe at all times. I feel like I have a gem of a pony and want to be sure I am doing everything “right” with her, or at least trying! I really value and appreciate the feedback from the on the ground instruction from my trainer and the great info on COTH.
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I’m not sure it rises to the level of hired help. 6 days a week, meals, a place to stay, and pocket money? Great learning opportunity but …
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Yes you have no right to train other people’s horses. You lead with their training not yours.
Two signals for back. The word and a thumb on the chest. The word and a gentle tug on the tail for unloading and the word and wave the finger side to side.
2 signals as in the float you want one horse to go back at a time.
The dog training is a huge help for groundwork and you are way ahead of the game to have that background.
I think horses love it when they discover that humans can have a repertoire of consistent meaningful communication on the ground. They are very impressed we actually have a little bit of intelligence and mares in particular will work hard to try to encourage that.
A lot of ground handling is random white noise interspersed with sudden shouts or demands. Naturally horses think we are tone deaf and rather stupid.
My mare is definitely working hard to train me to reward her for tricks!
As we’ve gone on, each new trick is easier and easier to teach because she has realized I’m actually communicating some thing.
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That’s true, except…
If you let your horse in your space, or pull you off in some direction, or wander around without stopping or standing quietly, they learn that’s okay. They have a response to your cue and if your cue is doing nothing that’s the training. It may not make any difference if it’s you and your horse, but what if part of my job is to handle your horse? If your horse runs me over going into a stall, I’ll take him out and in and out and in until he learns to stop and step in and turn toward me. It’s a safety issue not just a training issue. My view is just because you are a working student shouldn’t mean you have to tolerate a lack of appropriate training when you’re handling my horse. Seems like BO or trainer should be addressing this with owners.
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Every time you are handling a horse you are training it. What I meant by that is that it is not up to you to train the horse to walk behind if that is your belief. You train what the owner wants not what you want.
if it is a western horse you do not teach it dressage. If it is a dressage horse you do not teach it to jog unless asked.
When on other people’s property. I do it their way without comment and safely.
You come here. You don’t go near my horses without doing what I want.
I just typed a big long response and then realized you were asking for how we ask for it, not how we train it!:o
I guess I ask in different ways.
I might, if we’re standing still, turn to face their tail, turn my hand upside down on the lead, and walk towards their tail.
Or if we’re walking along, I might raise my hand and stop my forward motion (and hopefully the horse’s!) then keep it raised as I walk backwards myself.
Or if the horse is trying to forge ahead of me on the lead (cough Conjure), I might raise my hand and if that is ignored I might put some energy in the rope to send him backwards.
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There is however a grey area when owners put horses in full board and are clueless about manners on the ground, either because they are newbies or the their discipline doesn’t seem include that or because manners doesn’t really impact them because the go stall to cross ties to arena. At some point the active care team is going to need to make that horse stand up for the farrier and vet. Etc.
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