Natural horsemanship

[Guilherme]

@Scribbler

There is however a grey area when owners put horses in full board and are clueless about manners on the ground, either because they are newbies or the their discipline doesn’t seem include that or because manners doesn’t really impact them because the go stall to cross ties to arena. At some point the active care team is going to need to make that horse stand up for the farrier and vet. Etc.

Absolutely.

A professional boarding facility has, or at least ought to have, in their contract authority to handle boarded horses as required to ensure the health, safety, and welfare of the horse and the handler and of any third parties. It is not a “license to beat”; it is authority to ensure health, safety, and welfare. There are some strains of NH that eschew any sort of discipline. If an owner brings that sort of horse by the wise barn owner likely will send it down the road; no good will come of such a boarder.*

The owner of any horse gets to set the terms and conditions of treatment of that horse WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE BOARDING SITUATION!!! It is NOT a unilateral authority. If an owner demands that then move that one on down the road.

G.

*If the owner has just purchased the horse and wants the barn to conduct appropriate training then that’s OK.

[pluvinel]

@SuzieQNutter

Every time you are handling a horse you are training it. What I meant by that is that it is not up to you to train the horse to walk behind if that is your belief. You train what the owner wants not what you want.

if it is a western horse you do not teach it dressage. If it is a dressage horse you do not teach it to jog unless asked.

When on other people’s property. I do it their way without comment and safely.

You come here. You don’t go near my horses without doing what I want.

Sorry…my safety is more important than you or your horse’ spechul snowflake.needs

I have a friend who fractured 2 fingers and need surgery and pins because the owner didn’t want her (rude) horse “corrected” when being turned out.

And FWIW…everyone at my barn, including vets and dentist, comments how nice my horses are to handle.

[SuzieQNutter]

As i said I do it without comment and safely. If I think it is unsafe I don’t do it. It is then up to the owner.

[walktrot]

If you’re at your own house with your horse and you don’t care if you can’t lead him safely, it’s your problem. When you decide to board him at the barn where I keep my horse you are agreeing that someone else handle him. If he dances off the trailer and can’t be led safely into the barn, yeah it’s still your problem, except now it is everybody else’s issue, too. Why should we assume that you (a) recognize that he has a huge hole in his training, (b) understand it has to be fixed, and © acknowledge that you appear to have either created or tolerated the problem, in which case somebody else should fix it. Please explain to me why Pluvinel’s friend had to tolerate a significant injury to her hand because the owner won’t permit anyone to “correct” her horse. It’s not like she was going to ruin the piaffe, it was a safety issue.

A horse is a horse and they are all pretty much the same when they hit the ground on day one. They think the same way, they learn the same way, they react the same way, and they all live in the moment. They may be genetically loaded to be better at dressage, or chasing cows, or jumping, or carrying kids around at the local lesson barn. They are all the same until we get involved and decide what discipline they will pursue. I can’t think of anything an owner could say to me that would justify their 6-figure FEI dressage horse’s inability to be handled safely. If my 4-figure pleasure horse, so can your expensive warmblood.

There are some basics that all horses should have regardless of what their destiny is. Those are the things they should learn when they are young. It’s the same with human kids and puppies. Why is it relevant if you want them to be an MD in 25 years? They still get toilet trained like everybody else. Sure there is more than one way to lead a horse. I don’t like them behind me, but I will accept it from my own horse when he is licking the back of my jacket. Otherwise he will be next to me.

The thing about NH is that it’s an amorphous brand for something you can’t actually describe. It isn’t a discipline or a methodology. It’s a big bucket filled with “trainers” with amorphous training techniques and clever marketing. It tends to focus on ground work and colt training and not much else, because too many “trainers” don’t get beyond that. Their followers don’t either. They get stuck because they don’t know or don’t care how to correct a problem so they let it slide. They and/or their horse land somewhere where someone else has to cope with them.

A lot of excellent trainers have been dumped into that bucket, in my opinion because they ride in a Western saddle. They shouldn’t be there. They don’t like or use the NH moniker. Too many English riders look down their noses at these “cowboys” and don’t realize that they can make a better horse and rider no matter what the discipline or level. These individuals have the same knowledge, understanding, and talent that we associate with best trainers in specific disciplines and they contribute just as much to the horse world, just in a different way.

[Curly_Feather]

We’ve probably gotten sidetracked a bit, but I’m enjoying the discussion!

For backing and moving over, I flutter my fingers on the bit of my horse I want to move over. I’m often massaging him or faffing in other ways, and it’s annoying if he moves around from normal finger pressure.

What people consider to be acceptable manners varies wildly… Also, horses can learn that different people use different cues. As an example, my groom is a tiny Malawian man. He has years of experience with handling horses, but no formal education whatsoever. If I want Odie to back up, I can gesture or just taptaptap his chest really lightly. Albert leans his shoulder against Odie’s chest and pushes him back like a rugby scrum. Same result, same horse

[candyappy]

@pluvinel

How about asking the horse to move rearwards. Handler says “Back”…you know…like use the voice.

This. And/ or put a little tension on the rope to signal “back up” if the horse isn’t getting it?

I’ve never done a wiggle and don’t understand why you are so far away from your horse that you are at the end of your rope in the first place?

I also lead with my horse’s nose about level with my arm and my hand closer to the halter. Sometimes coming in from the pasture to tack up she is ( gasp)trailing behind me somewhat. Bad horsemanship, but she is trustworthy and I am watching.

[Scribbler]

@candyappy

This. And/ or put a little tension on the rope to signal “back up” if the horse isn’t getting it?

I’ve never done a wiggle and don’t understand why you are so far away from your horse that you are at the end of your rope in the first place?

I also lead with my horse’s nose about level with my arm and my hand closer to the halter. Sometimes coming in from the pasture to tack up she is ( gasp)trailing behind me somewhat. Bad horsemanship, but she is trustworthy and I am watching.

Training horses to respond when at a distance is one of the hall marks of NH. The more adept ones do liberty demos at horse expos, etc.

It could also be useful in a lot of Western or trail riding situations. Back up and stand while I open this gate or tie my boot or take a pee. Or doctor this calf.

I think it’s part of having a repertoire of commands on the ground for when you dont or can’t have the horse up beside you.

Last summer I started trailering out to a local horse park that had good trails and a cross country field.

Our horses were better citizens in that environment than the eventers and pony club crowd.

But not as good as the real Western horses. One fellow rode in from a local farm on a good quality ranch bred quarter horse. He sat at the picnic table with some buddies and horse just stood there totally relaxed for a couple of hours. He didn’t try to graze and he didn’t even try to mooch human food off the table. That’s the ideal. I expect too he lived on pasture unlike our suburban animals.

Anyhow being able to back up horse at a distance is step one in teaching them to ground tie or “stay” because you have a cue to tell them not to follow you and to put them back where you want them.

I rsttled the rope like that exactly once in a groundwork clinic and never had to do it again. Maresy learns fast.

[SuzieQNutter]

That is the key. The horses learn so fast that you don’t need to put them in a round yard every day to teach them. It is the rider or in NH cases they don’t seem to ride that take a lifetime to learn, not the horse.

As said above the horse should stand still. You should be able to stand beside it without the horse niggling you to pat it, trying to touch you, trying to eat, trying to walk, etc, etc, etc.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

I’m always surprised when people think NH means not riding. Groundwork is just halter breaking. It’s a means to an end, but it is certainly nowhere near the end. It’s a beginning. I thought Buck summed it up nicely. I can’t remember his exact words, but it was something like “the first day, the horse costs you money; the second day, he goes on the payroll; and by the third day, he’s making you money.”
Of course, most of us aren’t working stock, so I don’t mean we should take that quote literally. But I think it illustrates that NH intends to develop a working partner in short order. ETA: I am aware that there are those who market halter breaking as an end in itself. People used to say one fellow in particular was selling to “middle-aged women afraid of theirhorses.”
Being a middle-aged woman who maintains only a maestro or a moron has never been afraid of a horse, I don’t love that statement. But I bring it up to illustrate the point that the guys who say don’t ride until you can get the horse to execute a perfect pirouette three times on successive Tuesdays in May are just out to take people’s money. They’re not NH.

[Scribbler]

Well, my preference is riding but I’ve grown to really enjoy trick training and liberty work because my mare turned out to br quite talented at it. She just loves getting up on the circus box and looking smug. However I honestly don’t think it has much impact on her performance under saddle. I also do dressage lateral work in hand which does transfer to lateral work under saddle.

I also agree that the biggest part of NH is training the human and if the humans don’t have good timing they do tend to over compensate by being noisy.

[SuzieQNutter]

When I said that I was not referring to the people who teach. I was referring to the people I knew who practiced but never actually got on the horse.

[Scribbler]

@SuzieQNutter

When I said that I was not referring to the people who teach. I was referring to the people I knew who practiced but never actually got on the horse.

Yes it can be great out for folks who have gotten afraid to ride.

.

[SuzieQNutter]

In their case they never learnt to ride in the first place. He didn’t even know what a rising trot was.

I just met a girl I used to know there. She saw a photo of me riding his horse. It is a nice photo. She said she was surprised I got on him. I asked why. When I knew him he was a normal tb and the guy had just started with Parelli training. I heard Mum say he could just point to the float and the horse went in.

The girl called the horse mean and nasty. Not a nice horse at all. That just saddens me from the horse I remember.