Naughty Foal Question

[stoicfish]

So my colt is now 6 days old. At four days he started to nip, like run up to me and grab my shirt and run away. So I would say no and push his little nose away. Then he got more aggressive and started to bite more and harder and push into me. I would grab him and hold him and he would stand still and be quiet. As soon as I let him go he runs a lap and tries again. I flicked his nose and squealed at him. No change.
Then he started to “jump” at me up on his back legs. I grabbed him and pushed him to the ground (gently) and held him down. He is fine with it, gets up, tries again. He does not hold it against me, on the contrary, he just comes back with more determination.
He is very sweet otherwise, comes when he is called, I can pet him all over, including his legs, is still when I hold him. He will lie down close to me when I am working in the barn and I can pick up his head and he won’t even wake up. At nite when he is worn out his manners are great. He is an only foal and is in a paddock with just his uptight Mom. His Mom is a sweetheart that is very co-operative, and the stallion was chosen for his temperament. Some other behaviors, he is licking/chewing everything wood, and sticks his tongue out the side of his mouth some of the time.
Is this a play thing or a dominance issue?
And what else can I do to get the message across without damaging his trust in me?
Referencing any books or articles would be welcome also.
Thanks

P.S. This is my first foal.

[Rhyadawn]

There are some great threads on this type of behavior in foals. I suggest going back and reading them for a start.

(I’ll see if I can dig them up for you)

Without being there to see this in action it sounds like he just wants to play. The problem is that you are not his playmate! This is not acceptable behavior (if you don’t want him doing it as an adult he should not be allowed to do it as a baby).

[amdfarm]

W/ a foal that young, I’m going to guess being playful and pushy both. I think he’s a bit too young to really know herd dynamics and being dominant despite the fact he’s a colt.

Foals have the attention span of a gnat. Any discipline needs to be immediate and to the point, then back to what you were doing and it will take MANY tries before some of them learn.

If I have a pushy and persistent foal, I try to react like a mare would or any alpha horse. I will make myself bigger, and I’m not a big person at all, and will either pinch or slap whatever body part I can to get the point acrossed. For a foal that think trying to jump on me or in my lap is fun, they get a slap on the chest and a very firm NO!! And as you’ve found, if first don’t succeed, try, try again so as I said it can take many tries to get the point acrossed on what is acceptable and what isn’t in their tiny little gnat-like minds.

For a biter and if you have fingernails, a jab in the muzzle w/ a thumb nail can be very effective. If you don’t, then pinch a lip and say NO!! Growling can also work, too. It’s not what you say, but how you say it.

I have an 11 week old colt that is trying my patience on learning how to lead right now. When he gets frustrated and starts acting up (rearing and just being stubborn), I gently pull the lead down as I don’t want him to go over, then growl at him and tell him STOP!! I release the pressure as soon as he stops and settles and he stands calmly while I praise him and reassure him so we can start again. By that time he’s forgotten he was disciplined and we continue on again.

I’ve yet to have one become afraid of me for being disciplined so I wouldn’t worry too much unless it become excessive and constant. As he gets older, he’ll retain things easier and longer. You’ll be amazed how fast they learn and grow. Nip it in the bud now cause he’ll only get bigger and stronger.

Good luck and congrats on your first foal. They are a lot of fun. I have four this year and am having a ball after not having any last year.

[Rhyadawn]

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=177353

one thread down. I’m still looking for another one that was really good.

[kealea31]

“And what else can I do to get the message across without damaging his trust in me?”

You need to establish yourself as top of the food chain now to establish respect and trust. The key is to get after a fresh foal immediately when the bad behavior is presented. If you wait 3 seconds it has been to long. Disciplining after the fact is what creates a spooky horse. Just like an alpha mare, you need to make sure that if he misbehaves, that you are bigger and meaner than he is. Screaming at them works well for me because I can do it fast. Do the best you can to correct this now before he gets bigger.

Also, see if you can find someone to help you with him that has experience with foals. With my foals, I get someone to help me for the first couple of weeks, and I do about a 10 minute training session with them once or twice a day. By the time they are a couple of days old they lead, load on the horse trailer, stand for the clippers, and allow thier feet to be picked up. This can be done in a small paddock, or your helper can lead the mare. These things are much easier to teach when they are small:)

[stoicfish]

Rhy, Amd and Keal,
Thank you for your reponses. I knew I had to jump on his behavior, but what I was doing didn’t seem to work. The “brain like a knat” explanation is very helpful. I will just be persistent and keep up with the yelling and pinching, knowing I have to give it more time. And the thread links are very cool too!

[fivehorses]

Please be aware that the thread rhyadan linked is for a 9 month old colt…a lot different than a young foal.

I posted some advice on this thread below in offcourse recently. A young colt should be handled minimally, and they don’t get what a smack means or even NO. That association happens at 6 months or older. Best thing to do for younger than 6 months is ‘walk away’ from negative behavior. If you observe herd dynamics that is what the older horses do, move away from the brat, or even run!
Remember a smack or even negative attention is sometimes what they learn to want. I had a colt once who would paw the gate in front of me, go over, say NO, sometimes smack…finally I figured out, he liked the attention. Once I started to ignore him, he stopped pawing to get my attention. He would do it while I cleaned stalls.

My advice to the person with a young foal/

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=213934

[SmartAlex]

Bite him back. Careful about getting hair in your teeth though. It’s hard to get out. :winkgrin:

Really though, a well timed and hard pinch in the side or neck is pretty effective. They do go through stages where you just can’t be near them without having a firm hold of their halter so they can’t get at you.

My foal is 9 weeks old and very mouthy. His very alpha Mama let’s him get away with murder. Yesterday he nipped me in the shoulder blade and I managed to back kick and catch him lightly and squarely in the chest. For the next five minutes, every time he came back to “tease” me again, I kicked back at him or stomped my foot. After 3 or 4 tries, he stood back and just stared at me contemplating his sudden fall from grace and demotion to the bottom of the pecking order. It was priceless.

He then managed to stand for the farrier with only two attempts at a breakaway, and then stand tied to the wall as his mother was trimmed. :yes:

I planned for years, and paid lotza money for this experience…:sadsmile: When oh, when will the little varmint grow out of it :lol:

[Rhyadawn]

[QUOTE=fivehorses;4234745]
Please be aware that the thread rhyadan linked is for a 9 month old colt…a lot different than a young foal.

I posted some advice on this thread below in offcourse recently. A young colt should be handled minimally, and they don’t get what a smack means or even NO. That association happens at 6 months or older. Best thing to do for younger than 6 months is ‘walk away’ from negative behavior. If you observe herd dynamics that is what the older horses do, move away from the brat, or even run!
Remember a smack or even negative attention is sometimes what they learn to want. I had a colt once who would paw the gate in front of me, go over, say NO, sometimes smack…finally I figured out, he liked the attention. Once I started to ignore him, he stopped pawing to get my attention. He would do it while I cleaned stalls.

My advice to the person with a young foal/

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=213934[/QUOTE]

This is actually the thread I was looking for.

As I stated earlier, this sounds like play behavior, which is fine, he needs a buddy to play with if mom isn’t doing the job. But that buddy is not you. This can progress to dangerous behavior when he gets a little older. At this stage walking away works. But be ready to change your discipline style in a few weeks if you need to.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;4234788]
Bite him back. Careful about getting hair in your teeth though. It’s hard to get out. :winkgrin:

I planned for years, and paid lotza money for this experience…:sadsmile: When oh, when will the little varmint grow out of it :lol:[/QUOTE]

Too funny - but I actually tried it! He was way too quick, I thought just one ear…
Yep, this is my big experience too and I get Diablo the biting colt. He loves attention so I will do the walk away thing today.
If he keeps being bad I am going to phone the SO’s and tell them he needs to go stay with his Dad for awhile :lol: (He pays no child support you know)

[fivehorses]

Biting, nipping is an ongoing(sometimes) foal/young horse thing. Their teeth hurt and they want to glom onto whatever they can.
Walking away serves a couple of purposes…he is not learning to glom on to you, and he also is realizing that when he is bad, you disappear.
Its not an overnight thing, in fact, its a couple of months thing that is ongoing.
As they get older, about 6 months, you can add a physical reinforcement, NO, smack, walk away. Unless he is really dumb, he will get it.
My yearling now knows, when I do ‘eek’ or something to that affect, he better stop the behavior.

I found when he was younger, that smacking him while saying NO meant nothing. Under 6 months they are way too young to learn the “you are being killed” or time to “Meet Jesus”. Watch mom and other herdmates behavior towards little ones…if we mimic it, we are way ahead of the game.
Very rarely does a youngster get ‘reprimanded’ by mom or herdmates, until he gets about 6 months, which also coincides with their weaning…hmmm, horses coddle and baby their young ones, but when they get to be older, lesson time.
In my experience, I have watched all three of my herds do flips to get away from the bratty colt rather than reprimand him.
He has a very bad habit of liking to bite hocks. I watched one of my very large drafts, literally push him away with a kicking motion. Didn’t kick him, but used his hoof to ‘push’ baby off him. I thought for sure this horse was going to nail him, but he didn’t. They know they are babies. We need to treat them the same.

I also highly emphasize as others have too, you cannot absolutely not let them get away with things because they are oh so cute! It just reinforces the behavior, and makes a tangle of trying to undo it when they aren’t so cute.
Also, for me, my biggest thing was other people just loving playing with him and teaching him that mouthy behavior was ok. People did not want to walk away from the ever so cute colt.
good luck.

[stoicfish]

The walk away thing did not entirely help, he chased me. Didn’t want to leave him with that idea. So I tried to move forward into his space right away and back him up. That seemed to work better. His mother is very uptight and squeals if he tries to bite her and he listens!!. I think I now understand why mares “fall in love” with their fillies, they don’t require so much discipline. With this boy, she has to be a disciplinarian all the time.
I appreciate everyone’s responses, they helped a lot. More for me, that I am doing the right thing, and this is somewhat normal.
Also I also got a rubber chew toy for a large dog and a ball, he liked that.

[Waterwitch]

Stoicfish - you did the right thing. Walking away from foals like this just reinforces their sense of dominance. Anytime a foal is getting naughty (or looks like they are thinking about it!) I move them out of my space - aggressively if necessary.

My experience does not reflect 5horses. I discipline early (days old) using scary voice and “big” body language. Usually this is enough to make an impression on a very young foal. They are capable of learning very early on what is acceptable behavior, but you have to be fair and you have to act quickly enough and intensely enough to make an impression. In older foals (weeks old), when the ultimate transgressions occur (biting or kicking), I strike them on whatever body part I can reach as hard as I can. At all ages I make a point of moving them out of my space (forcefully if necessary) when they get too pushy.

The key with “corporal punishment” is not to ditz them or to be too gentle so they think you are playing. You need to smack them - lightening fast - hard enough to scare them and send them running back to mom. Usually it just takes one time. I have never had my actions result in a distrustful youngster. Usually they think about it for a few minutes and then they are respectfully inching back up to me for scritches.

With really mouthy colts - make a policy for yourself and others who handle him or visit him not to touch and cuddle his face and muzzle. This just encourages bad behavior. We have a very very oral colt this year who seems to suck anything even slightly mobile into his mouth like a hoover, and the rule for the kids is they can pet him from the neck back only. Obviously you need to establish that you can handle his head for grooming and haltering etc, just try to avoid too much casual contact that could be interpreted as an invitation for a bite/slap play session.

Good luck!

[fivehorses]

I don’t mean to walk away as in submission. I mean it in the terms of behavior modification where bad behavior is ignored and positive behavior is rewarded.

I was mostly addressing when the colt is in a stall or other confined area.

If in pasture he is coming at you, I do the same thing, get very large and scary. He came at me once or twice, and I just pushed him away and slowly walked away or just stood my ground until he got bored. I don’t think he saw that as submission. I tended to not spend much time in his pasture…I spend more time with them in the barn.
I have also found that young horses are much more terroritorial about their field and grow out of it as they get older. Additionally, by their nature they are inquisitive, and will approach you, also they have not yet ‘learned’ appropriate behavior, many are mouthy and its a set up for failure.

I just do not expose myself to what might turn out to be a bad experience or encounter.

Oh well, its my experience that too much correcting at a young age turns into a problem later in life, when you must escalate the discipline. If they learn, wonderful, but in my experience, he did not get it when I corrected him and we were escalating the issue.

At 6 months its a whole other story. Seeing Jesus may be necessary.

Also waterwitch made a very good point about scratching from the neck back. It is so easy for people to play with their faces, but its the worse thing. Also, foals love the top of their butt scratched, but if he got mouthy or nippy, out of the stall and the end of his scratches. Maybe only for a few minutes and then another retry, but this is where you teach…bad behavior = no contact.

[Home_Again_Farm]

@Waterwitch;4237093

Stoicfish - you did the right thing. Walking away from foals like this just reinforces their sense of dominance. Anytime a foal is getting naughty (or looks like they are thinking about it!) I move them out of my space - aggressively if necessary.

My experience does not reflect 5horses. I discipline early (days old) using scary voice and “big” body language. Usually this is enough to make an impression on a very young foal. They are capable of learning very early on what is acceptable behavior, but you have to be fair and you have to act quickly enough and intensely enough to make an impression. In older foals (weeks old), when the ultimate transgressions occur (biting or kicking), I strike them on whatever body part I can reach as hard as I can. At all ages I make a point of moving them out of my space (forcefully if necessary) when they get too pushy.

The key with “corporal punishment” is not to ditz them or to be too gentle so they think you are playing. You need to smack them - lightening fast - hard enough to scare them and send them running back to mom. Usually it just takes one time. I have never had my actions result in a distrustful youngster. Usually they think about it for a few minutes and then they are respectfully inching back up to me for scritches.

With really mouthy colts - make a policy for yourself and others who handle him or visit him not to touch and cuddle his face and muzzle. This just encourages bad behavior. We have a very very oral colt this year who seems to suck anything even slightly mobile into his mouth like a hoover, and the rule for the kids is they can pet him from the neck back only. Obviously you need to establish that you can handle his head for grooming and haltering etc, just try to avoid too much casual contact that could be interpreted as an invitation for a bite/slap play session.

Good luck!

All of this bears repeating. Very good advice!!! :yes::yes::yes:

[horsesALLtheway]

I have a different issue. I have two adult horses and a 5 month old foal. One is a stud and the other two are mom and stud colt. I have had to set up hot wire both rope and single strand on less the an acre to separate the stud from momma and baby, but… baby keeps going between the two strand (being hot) and busting the wire. I have redone the wires and strand so many times but he keeps doing it. How do I stop this??

[skydy]

@horsesALLtheway

I have a different issue. I have two adult horses and a 5 month old foal. One is a stud and the other two are mom and stud colt. I have had to set up hot wire both rope and single strand on less the an acre to separate the stud from momma and baby, but… baby keeps going between the two strand (being hot) and busting the wire. I have redone the wires and strand so many times but he keeps doing it. How do I stop this??

Hello and welcome!

There is nothing separating the mare and foal from the stallion but two strands of electric? That, as you are finding out, is not safe fencing for a foal. Invest in safer fencing. It’s not cheap, but if you are going to have foals it’s really necessary.

[horsesALLtheway]

The foal is safe. The stallion loves him. The stud doesn’t go through the fence it’s the foal. He likes to hang out with our stud

[skydy]

The foal may be safe with your stallion but he’s not safe from the fence. If he’s able to get through the fence it’s not safe.

As your foal matures your stallion may have a change in attitude towards him. Are you considering gelding your colt and if so, when?

What are your plans for weaning?

[horsesALLtheway]

I didn’t get on here to discuss what I’m doing with my foal. I just needed advice for how to fix the fence issue. If u can’t help then I appreciate it u stop being nosy about my plans for the horses