Need advice - lesson girl's lame horse

[endlessclimb]

TL;DR - Horse is mildly lame on right hind, owners won’t do anything about it. Mind my own business, or put my foot down?

I give lessons to a younger girl, ~16yo. She’s a lovely rider, getting better every day. Puts the time and the effort in. Rides western, ranch specifically. She does well, after we got her over the initial hump. They got her horse from a mid-high end auction. She had very poor instruction to start, and this horse seriously got her number during that time. He was nappy, balky, crabby, wouldn’t move, wouldn’t canter, bucking, etc. He didn’t start that way - her inexperience allowed it to slowly evolve. It all came to a head at a show when he WOULD NOT load into an open stock trailer in a trail class - that’s when they asked me for help.

They have improved leaps and bounds since I started working with them - I’m not a western guru by ANY stretch of the imagination, but horsemanship is horsemanship. Teaching her to be an effective leader EVERYwhere really made the difference.

Her horse is a strange bird. He is one of the most dull and unmotivated horses I have ever seen, while being athletic enough to nearly get you decked when he’s got strong feelings on something. I’ve ridden him a few times, working on sharpening him up to the leg, and you have to WHOLLOP him to get any reaction. Even with a dressage whip, the level of force needed is something I’ve rarely encountered. He is just… not sensitive, and not motivated.

The horse was broken out VERY young - there’s video of him at a cow sorting as a 3 year old, and he also flunked out of reining training by the time he was 4. He’s 7 now, I believe.

For the last 5 months, I’ve seen mild right hind lameness in the horse. He’s always been sticky about his left lead, so to see this crop up makes total sense. I spoke to them then about getting the horse looked at by the vet - get xrays etc, consider joint injections should he show he needs them…

They’ve done… nothing. The lameness is now visible at the trot at all times (to me, I’m pretty sensitive), and I’m honestly uncomfortable asking the horse to do things that are clearly hurting him. I have offered to go down to Purdue with them. I have told them the story of my Old Man horse and his surgical arthrodesis because I waited too long. Still, they have him on Cosequin and think that’s good enough. The farrier has also told them he’s sore behind - he’s a turkey for his hind shoes.

This is so bizarre to me - the horse needs help. They care deeply for the horse. They show the everliving snot out of him in the spring and summertime. I don’t understand what this hangup is with getting him looked at. It’s like they have a visceral reaction to joint injections, which is so strange to me.

At any rate, what would you do? It’s getting to the point where I want to say “I’m not giving you any more lessons until your horse is sound, or at least looked at.” The lameness is minor, the horse’s behaviors are the same as they’ve always been (he’s ring sour, likely from being broken as a 2 year old…), but the lameness sure isn’t helping him with being motivated.

[BigMama1]

@endlessclimb

At any rate, what would you do? It’s getting to the point where I want to say “I’m not giving you any more lessons until your horse is sound, or at least looked at.”

I think that’s the responsible, ethical thing to do.

[trubandloki]

@endlessclimb

TL;DR - Horse is mildly lame on right hind, owners won’t do anything about it. Mind my own business, or put my foot down?

I give lessons to a younger girl, ~16yo. She’s a lovely rider, getting better every day. Puts the time and the effort in. Rides western, ranch specifically. She does well, after we got her over the initial hump. They got her horse from a mid-high end auction. She had very poor instruction to start, and this horse seriously got her number during that time. He was nappy, balky, crabby, wouldn’t move, wouldn’t canter, bucking, etc. He didn’t start that way - her inexperience allowed it to slowly evolve. It all came to a head at a show when he WOULD NOT load into an open stock trailer in a trail class - that’s when they asked me for help.

They have improved leaps and bounds since I started working with them - I’m not a western guru by ANY stretch of the imagination, but horsemanship is horsemanship. Teaching her to be an effective leader EVERYwhere really made the difference.

Her horse is a strange bird. He is one of the most dull and unmotivated horses I have ever seen, while being athletic enough to nearly get you decked when he’s got strong feelings on something. I’ve ridden him a few times, working on sharpening him up to the leg, and you have to WHOLLOP him to get any reaction. Even with a dressage whip, the level of force needed is something I’ve rarely encountered. He is just… not sensitive, and not motivated.

The horse was broken out VERY young - there’s video of him at a cow sorting as a 3 year old, and he also flunked out of reining training by the time he was 4. He’s 7 now, I believe.

For the last 5 months, I’ve seen mild right hind lameness in the horse. He’s always been sticky about his left lead, so to see this crop up makes total sense. I spoke to them then about getting the horse looked at by the vet - get xrays etc, consider joint injections should he show he needs them…

They’ve done… nothing. The lameness is now visible at the trot at all times (to me, I’m pretty sensitive), and I’m honestly uncomfortable asking the horse to do things that are clearly hurting him. I have offered to go down to Purdue with them. I have told them the story of my Old Man horse and his surgical arthrodesis because I waited too long. Still, they have him on Cosequin and think that’s good enough.

This is so bizarre to me - the horse needs help. They care deeply for the horse. They show the everliving snot out of him in the spring and summertime. I don’t understand what this hangup is with getting him looked at. It’s like they have a visceral reaction to joint injections, which is so strange to me.

At any rate, what would you do? It’s getting to the point where I want to say “I’m not giving you any more lessons until your horse is sound, or at least looked at.” The lameness is minor, the horse’s behaviors are the same as they’ve always been (he’s ring sour, likely from being broken as a 2 year old…), but the lameness sure isn’t helping him with being motivated.

If I was in your shoes I would point out that Dobbin needs to be seen by a vet and is not sound for riding or showing right now.
You say they like to show, use that to your advantage. Point out that they are not going to get placed or they will be asked to leave the ring since their horse is lame.

Then tell them no more lessons until Dobbin is cleared by the vet.

[endlessclimb]

He’s definitely not lame enough to get rung out. I think that’s where their hangup is - the judges don’t see a problem, why should we?

[trubandloki]

@endlessclimb

He’s definitely not lame enough to get rung out. I think that’s where their hangup is - the judges don’t see a problem, why should we?

Hu?

He is either lame or he is not.

[endlessclimb]

It’s really mild, in the scheme of things. I can see it all the time, but I’m REALLY sensitive to it. It used to be I’d see it here and there, a weird step, but now it’s all the time.

I showed them a few weeks ago. They agreed they could see it. He’s not tracking up, but it’s not something he would get rung out of a western class for.

I don’t know if you’ve seen what passes at most western shows for “sound” though. Let’s just say the bar isn’t high.

[S1969]

I think I’d have a hard time being their trainer regardless.

Can you suggest they do at least a bute trial and/or something similar and see if the horse improves under saddle overall? Maybe all the ring sourness is body soreness and if they saw an improvement they might think it was worth pursuing more.

Joint injections at 7 is a poor prognosis for a long healthy life. Yikes.

[beowulf]

He is likely shut down and unresponsive because he’s in pain. It would be a kindness to pull the parents and kid aside and impart on both of them in no uncertain terms are they doing their good horse a good service by ignoring his increasing lameness. If you need to, appeal to the emotions of the teen, who probably loves him.

He needs a horse person to be his ambassador. Try to help the teenager become one, it will only serve her better in her future to be kind and compassionate.

If you just write them off and give an ultimatum like “I won’t teach until he’s sound” they will likely just vote with their feet and go elsewhere. You have an opportunity to try and help this horse, see if you can guide them. They really sound clueless.

[endlessclimb]

@S1969

Can you suggest they do at least a bute trial and/or something similar and see if the horse improves under saddle overall?

I have suggested this, and got shut down.

They are the only people I give lessons to, it’s hugely inconvenient for me honestly. I just love seeing the girl succeed from where she started from, and she’s got a boatload of potential.

The vet they use is HUGELY anti-injection, which is not helpful. I’m guessing it’s in his hocks, and likely from the 3-4 year old year of HARD reining training. The only other horse I’ve met that has this mental state of “unresponsive” was also a reining training flunk out. Those trainers put it on them hard and fast (not all of them, but the majority).

[endlessclimb]

I’ve been on them for this for months now, it’s just coming to a head.

I did get them to do some chiropractic stuff, but they’re really anti anything even remotely invasive. I even suggested adequan, and because it involved needles it got the “NOPE.”

Frustrating to be dealing with this level of ignorance, yet unwillingness to learn.

[FjordBCRF]

@endlessclimb

I have suggested this, and got shut down.

What was their stance on not considering it?

I’d maybe ask more directly and as part of potentially stepping away from the situation, something along the lines of, “Horses lameness is getting worse and it’s putting me in a spot where ethically, I cannot continue giving daughter lessons on him. I’ve suggested abcdefghijk…what is holding you back from exploring any of these options?”

Editing - just saw your last post. Sigh.

[lenapesadie]

Hi lesson kid and parents, in my opinion Dobbin is not going to progress until this little issue in his hind is sorted out. Let me know once you have it sorted with vet and we can continue lessons if you like. Of course if you want me to help you w vet arrangements I might can help but I understand you work with a vet already.

[2DogsFarm]

@endlessclimb

I’m not giving you any more lessons until your horse is sound, or at least looked at

/
THIS X1,000,000
Sounds like a classic case of Can’t Fix Stoopid.
IIWM, I’d back away from these people.
As much as you’ve done for the kid, if the parents(= checkbook) won’t get a vet out & kid won’t advocate for her own horse, they’re not horseowners I’d want to deal with.
Hoping one of the Show the Snot judges will excuse the horse from a class & tell kid why.

ETA;
I’m from your 'hood & what I’ve seen passing for WP is indeed a truly low standard.
I expect they’ll move on to another local “Pro” {shudder}

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

That’s so sad and frustrating. From your original description, it sounded like he was really, really mentally shut down–started so young, or with bad training–that to “protect” himself, he just ignores cues that aren’t “shouted” at him. It’s also possible that the balkiness had a partially physical cause, even if it wasn’t obvious to anyone, even a highly experienced rider like yourself, at first.

Other than refusing to continue to teach the student, I agree there isn’t much you can do, because you can’t really give lessons on an unsound horse (even beginner lesson horses should be serviceably sound for what they are being asked to do). All you can point out is that the problem will get worse and more expensive to treat if they address it later.

Are they concerned about paying for a lifetime of injections and are just trying to get as much use as they can, showing the horse, until he’s really off?

[sascha]

Practise this gesture and this activity “I’m sorry, but I cannot continue to work with a horse that has ongoing physical issues that are not improving.”

It’s not easy, but it’s the right thing to do. BTDT, still wish I could have got through to the owners of a couple, but there is only so much beating one’s head against a brick wall that one can take.

[Rackonteur]

Are they paying you for the lessons?
If so, are you willing to take money for contributing to damage of a horse? You should consider what you yourself are willing to do. Get paid for the horsemanship lessons you mentioned? Or for contributing to this horse’s misery?
Are these people Christian Scientists? Would explain their aversion to needles. What do they do when it’s vaccination time?

[Lusoluv]

You need to walk away politely. Then it’s the owner’s choice. They can have a lightbulb moment and realize this is serious or keep doing what they’re doing. I think by continuing to help them, they think Dobbin’s not that sore.

PS: A friend of mine had an OTTB and was recommended by me and her trainer to get him looked at due to on-off lameness. We suspected he needed hock injections at the age of 8 as he was progressively sore behind. She delayed for over a year until the trainer wouldn’t lesson her on “bad days”. She finally did it and saw a huge improvement. She never said why she stalled, but it was almost like she didn’t want to admit anything was “wrong”. That needing maintenance was admitting weakness or something. Very weird.

[endlessclimb]

You guys are confirming what my gut was telling me.

I have a lesson with her this Wednesday. They have two horses, the other one is less of a flashy mover and isn’t as well broke, but isn’t lame. I’ll offer to continue lessons on the non-lame one, but decline on Mr. SoreBehind until they have a vet clear him (which any vet worth their salt won’t).

I’m just flabbergasted at the “no, we know better” attitude these people have. It took me over a year to convince them that yes, their “show” horse can be turned out outside, in the mud. And afterwards, they said “wow, his attitude is so much better! I wish we would have listened sooner!” So I have a track record of steering them down the right path.

It’s honestly a bit insulting that they seem to think their level of care is somehow better than mine re: turnout and lameness - I would not suggest they do ANYthing with their horse that I wouldn’t do with my own. Full stop. I wish someone like me was around to give advice to younger-me when my Old Man horse was starting his lameness journey. I might have a sound horse today if someone with knowledge had intervened.

[Ghazzu]

Consistently observable at the trot is a Grade 3 lameness. I’d refuse to give lessons to someone riding such an animal.
(With the possible exception of an aged horse who comes out of the stall stiff and warms out of it.)

[ghst13]

@endlessclimb

I’ll offer to continue lessons on the non-lame one, but decline on Mr. SoreBehind until they have a vet clear him (which any vet worth their salt won’t).

I recommend that you have a plan for what you will say if their vet does clear him. You said their vet doesn’t believe in injections so it’s entirely possible that the vet may view the horse as serviceably sound. Then you’ll be in the position of your opinion vs the vet or trying to convince them that their vet is not qualified.