Need advice - lesson girl's lame horse

[endlessclimb]

After sleeping on it, I realized - I am an engineer, and I think of problems in engineer ways. Black and white. Problems and solutions.

That’s how I’m going to present it. Then I will follow up with why I’m drawing the line in the sand here, and that all I want is to see them accomplish every and all goals they have.

I am 100% willing to take a day off work and go to the clinic with them, should they need or want my support here.

Thinking more on it, I think the biggest hang up for these people is that the horse is young. But that flat out does not matter. We have a young dog who tore her CCL in 2022 - her age did not matter. Injuries happen at any age, and it’s to be almost expected that a horse broke out at 2 who flunked cutter training and went to auction, then flunked reining training and was bought by a ranch, then sold again to a flipper who sold him at auction… would have some arthritic changes. Hell, I’ve got a 6 year old OTTB who didn’t even race that I’m battling hock spurs on. You must evaluate the horse in front of you, not the one you wish you had, and not the one you think he should be.

[saje]

He may be young, but he hurts. It’s pretty classic - the dullness until something is really different/off, and then a BIG response. He’s blocking as much as he can, and when he can’t he reacts.

I hope these people get him evaluated - poor guy

[endlessclimb]

@saje

It’s pretty classic - the dullness until something is really different/off, and then a BIG response.

Again, he isn’t dull on the lunge, and he’s a maniac when turned out. The dullness under saddle I’m nearly positive is due to him being ridden into the ground as a young horse. He feels there’s nothing he can do that will be good enough to make the pressure go away - compound that with a rider that for a year or better (before I started helping) didn’t know how to apply pressure in a meaningful way. The horse already didn’t have a stellar work ethic (due to over-training I’d guess) and then gets the girl’s number.

He went from doing ok, to not doing anything. Refusing to load on the trailer to go home from a show. Glueing himself to the gate. Refusing to canter depart. etc etc. I watched it evolve with my own eyes. A boatload of it was classic “amateur handling can ruin horses” stuff.

We resolved all these things, started working on more body positioning and finesse things, but now in the last 2 months or so the lameness is now clear and consistent. I spoke to them right at the start that he might be sore somewhere, but until he shows it consistently that my past experience says that you’re going down the money rabbit hole with potentially no answers. Now that the lameness is clear, now it’s time to chase it down.

Side note: They wanted to work on trailer loading right from the get go. I told them, no, a horse who refuses to get on a trailer, after previously getting on ANY trailer, is a training issue that has absolutely nothing to do with the trailer - it’s a leadership thing. 6 months go by of good progression, and I tell them to go ahead and try to load him. Bingo, he loads perfectly, into 4 different trailers. Voila!

[endlessclimb]

@OverandOnward

One of the comments suggesting not mentioning injections again is a good one, in my opinion. If you have mentioned to them everything you have mentioned in this thread, your own past history with treatments etc. & so on with your own horse(s), that may have really backed them off.

Sorry, I just caught this blurb.

The message I gave to them was don’t mess around and/or wait too long on addressing this stuff. While I took my horse to Purdue at the first sign of lameness and got it diagnosed, I spent another year being scared of western medicine and instead doing adequan, magnet boots, back on track boots, blah blah blah. By the time the rubber met the road, his hocks were impossible to get into and inject. We tried everything to get in there, no dice. So, he ended up on the table for surgical arthrodesis on both legs, and never has been right since (he’s about the same as he was before the surgery, so it did effectively nothing).

If I hadn’t messed around with this-that-and-the-other-thing when he was first diagnosed, the whole thing might be different today. His body is in STELLAR shape, minus those hocks.

Maybe I did freak them out, I don’t know. I do think I need to explain to them current options of Prostride/IRAP/PRP, because their vet doesn’t know a blessed thing about them and considers them to be the same as steroids (yes, I asked her directly when I had my horses boarded in IN). Thank god I take everything anyone said with a dose of suspicion, and researched it myself…

[TheJenners]

@endlessclimb

I do think I need to explain to them current options of Prostride/IRAP/PRP

No, that’s for a vet to do. You as the instructor just need to tell them no lessons until they’ve addressed the lameness. I mean we are 80+ responses into a thread for what? $40/week? It’s not worth it to you to bang your head against this wall.

[endlessclimb]

I don’t think you’ve read this whole thread. The vets they speak to are idiots - that’s all we have locally. They think that all injections are created equal, and are evil and/or detrimental to the horse.

I am personally invested in this girl, and this horse. It’s worth more to me, personally, than $40 a week - I want to see her succeed, and I want to be a better mentor than just “oh it’s $40 a week”. My give a shit runs a little deeper than face value.

If it were as simple as you state I would have walked away a long long time ago, when I moved barns.

[Posting_Trot]

@endlessclimb Maybe you’ve done this already, but you could explain the lameness scale to them, and say that you think the horse is a 1 or a 1.5 on the scale, and that with a horse this young, early treatment could keep the horse sounder longer.

Then, if you can (and maybe you’ve done this already), bring them into the arena with you and show them what you’re seeing. I know you’ve said that you’re hyper-aware of lameness issues, but if you can show them the slight toe drag or the little hitch or whatever, they may begin to get a sense of the issue.

Good luck.

[Ghazzu]

@Posting_Trot

Maybe you’ve done this already, but you could explain the lameness scale to them, and say that you think the horse is a 1 or a 1.5 on the scale,

But he’s not. From the description, he’s at least a Grade 3.

[endlessclimb]

Well, ended up having the conversation over the phone with the mom, because it will be just the girl tomorrow for lessons and I’m not discussing this with her alone.

I got to hear the gamut of excuses, but I think I got through to her. Money itself is not necessarily an issue, but resentment from the father on how much the horses cost is.

I offered to hitch my trailer and haul to Purdue if/when they decide to make an appointment, with me covering all the gas. I will just try and piggy-back my mare going down at the same time so it’s worthwhile.

I did say that I would not be giving lessons to the girl and SoreBehind until he’s looked at at Purdue. Mom seems upset, but understanding. Girl has a lot of teenage emotions that I will face the brunt of tomorrow, but I’m prepared for that.

[cayuse]

Can you get a video of her riding and then sit them down and show them the video? Maybe it would be easier to show them the lameness that way as you can zero in on the worst steps and replay it. Maybe if they see it with no other distractions it will sink in. Then again, maybe not.

ETA: posted the same time as you, glad you made some headway with them.

[trubandloki]

@cayuse

Can you get a video of her riding and then sit them down and show them the video?

I think this is a great idea.

[quietann]

Agree with this. (Long ago, I had to see a video of my riding to see my mare’s LH lameness. I’m not an expert, and couldn’t really feel it when I was riding her.)

[TheJenners]

I have read it. You sound too invested in this as an outside instructor. My opinion entirely, I understand you want the best for the girl but the horse doesn’t belong to you and you can’t control what they do, you can only control what you do, which includes teaching lessons on a lame horse.

[endlessclimb]

Which I stated I won’t be doing anymore, so I’m not sure what your rub is. I’ve already explained that to them, as of this morning.

I don’t invite just anyone into my life, you’re right. These people absolutely are more than just “a girl I give lessons to”. I am personally invested in seeing her succeed, as I try to be with anyone I devote time to.

I would hope any trainer feels a little more than “this is just a cash cow” for their riders that are putting in the time and effort.

[TheJenners]

I don’t have a rub. You came at me saying I hadn’t read the thread. I did. These people clearly don’t want to get a different vet, discuss issues, pay for additional testing/treatment. I get that this morning you said you aren’t teaching them anymore, which you posted after I posted, so that is new information. I’m sorry you are invested in this to the level you are to the point that you are biting anonymous people’s heads off over advice that has been given over and over in this thread and others.

[seriously1]

It is a good thing that you finally pulled the plug so to speak.
One thing you may suggest to daughter - which will help while she waits to ride again is to take a look at Warwick Schiller’s stuff on relationships. Spending time on those foundational things will make effective use of the time while figuring out the lameness and will make for better rides later.

[endlessclimb]

I have said all the way through the thread that I wasn’t going to teach them on the horse anymore. This is post 17. The rest of the thread is discussing how to encourage them to get better vet care.

@endlessclimb

You guys are confirming what my gut was telling me.

I have a lesson with her this Wednesday. They have two horses, the other one is less of a flashy mover and isn’t as well broke, but isn’t lame. I’ll offer to continue lessons on the non-lame one, but decline on Mr. SoreBehind until they have a vet clear him (which any vet worth their salt won’t).

They also have a different horse who is not lame that I can continue to teach them on, so this isn’t a severed relationship right now as you’re implying I should have done.

[OverandOnward]

Since the mom didn’t immediately say ‘ok bye forever’, I would count that as progress. Tiny steps count. Good for you!

I really like the video idea. That gives people a chance to look more than once and process what they are seeing.

Plus, you can ‘slow’ the video down by start-stop, start-stop repeatedly. It works like slow-motion. It allows people to visually catch things that otherwise happen too fast to register at actual speed.

Your eye is much better developed to watching horses move than is theirs. You are seeing things they are not yet able to see. “Slowing” down the video may help them a lot.

(I remember not long after I first started riding, an instructor was explaining the motion of the trot and canter. I couldn’t see it and childishly despaired that I ever would. Of course I did learn to see it, pretty quickly, but at that point I wouldn’t have seen a subtle lameness. These people sound new enough that they probably aren’t yet able to see things that are apparent to you.)

[OverandOnward]

@endlessclimb

Money itself is not necessarily an issue, but resentment from the father on how much the horses cost is.

Now we are learning something very useful.

There are layers to this … why are they doing horses if dad is flinching at the cost, etc.

Not suggesting diving into their family relationships … but always, for people to accept what they are hearing, it has to address their real concerns.

Often the real reasons, the real concerns, aren’t that apparent. So often it is not what we guess, at all. It may take time to learn what is really worrying them. And what opens their ears.

[endlessclimb]

I will not venture deeper into their personal lives than I already have. That’s my limit. What happens outside the barn is none of my business - zero, zilch, none. They have to navigate that part on their own.