Not sure if youre being sarcastic, but I’m nice about it the first 5 or so times. At some point things become expected instead of instructed. Especially when it comes to her habit of nagging the already leg-dead horse. 
Not being sarcastic at all. You sound like a wonderful instructor.
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Gotcha. I’m really hoping you can get through to these people. I feel bad for the horse. I’ve known a few like this in similar situations and it’s always so sad when they’re so shut down you have to “shout”. Luckily I’ve seen a few really come around and it’s amazing how “sensitive” in the good way they become once their bodies are feeling better.
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I would say “I am enjoying teaching your daughter, but Dobbin is not comfortable/sound. And this needs to be addressed before I feel comfortable teaching her on Dobbin.”
Let the vet recommend what needs to be done. And hopefully it is a good vet.
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That should stop once they DQed for lameness.
You answered yourself.
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I totally agree that the best thing would be getting the horse seen by the vet. He certainly has reason to need a little help. But if a hard line ultimatum means they just walk away from you and continue on the horse regardless, that doesn’t really help the horse.
It might be worth taking a solid look at the horse to see how he can be improved with targeting strengthening and suppling. That very likely means taking some steps back in what he’s doing to hone in on those weak areas, but it’s often very possible to improve a lameness with some physical therapy type work, and maybe it’s also an opportunity to educate on how to identify lameness.
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100% confident. I bet he would flex like a son-of-a-gun, and when they block him I’ve got a dozen doughnuts that says he’s lame on the other one, too.
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That would also be a perfect way to transition away from them … suggest they contact one of these reputable, successful trainers. With luck the next trainer will tell them the same thing that you are telling them. With luck.
I have known some people who were just anti-medical. Anything they couldn’t treat at home with OTC meds & supplies, or didn’t know what to do about, they just ignored. They and their family members had all kinds of untreated permanent knots and dings. Their illnesses tended to drag on due to lack of intervention. A person or animal had to be in virtual collapse before they would consider a doctor. I wonder your lesson family take themselves to the doctor or not. They might not.
I don’t know if you have any interest in asking them why they don’t want to get a diagnosis or treatment from Purdue – do they not believe you, or is there some other reason – but you don’t have to. It might give some understanding of what would persuade them. If they say ‘cost’, you could mention the cost of a new show-ready horse if this one becomes too lame to show.
One of the comments suggesting not mentioning injections again is a good one, in my opinion. If you have mentioned to them everything you have mentioned in this thread, your own past history with treatments etc. & so on with your own horse(s), that may have really backed them off.
I suggest that from this point on, do not suggest any possible diagnosis or treatment, or comparison to lameness situations in one of your horses. Give them no specifics. Let that information come entirely from a Purdue vet. If they won’t go to one, that’s on them.
I’d suggest saying only that you won’t work with this horse again until the lameness is no longer visible to your eye. However that happens. You think the best route forward is that strongly-recommended visit to the Purdue vet, along with a follow up on their diagnosis and treatment recommendation.
Let them get all of the other information, the possibilities and the actual diagnosis & treatment, directly from the Purdue vet. That takes you out of that controversy on diagnosis and treatment, if there is one. Your criteria is that their horse - and any horse - needs to be working comfortably.
If they still won’t see the Purdue vet then that’s that. Nothing more to say about it. You have no reason to think it’s worth your time to check the horse again to see how he’s going.
One thing I would not do is work the daughter in to taking sides. That could cause far more problems than progress. If she jumps in on her own on either side, that’s between the family members. If they aren’t agreeing with each other, then I would stay out of that conversation. Just imo.
Good luck. Hope you’ll report back on your CTJ conversation.
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[quote=“OverandOnward, post:27, topic:783103”] I
recommend the break-up line to be “I think your daughter is at the point where you will be better off with a more western-show-oriented trainer, since that is what you most want to do. I’m really glad I was able to help to this point.”
I recommend against saying “it’s not working out”, especially if you choose to forego the vet discussion (although I like sascha’s approach a lot). Because they will talk this around and it will sound as if you were the one who pulled the rug out from under them. That could block your chances to help someone else in the future where possibly you can make an attitude change. It’s better if their takeaway is “endless climb helped us so much with this training problem, try working with her for a while”.
[/quote]
So you recommend the OP be dishonest.
So you’d rather the OP get a rep for weaseling out of an unpleasant situation than possibly get gossiped about for refusing to mistreat a lame horse AND outwardly condone the misbehavior of horse’s owners?
OP I hope you will be true to yourself and your high standards of horsemanship and professionalism, and honest with yourself.
They’re gossips anyways. I can’t count how many times I’ve had to shut down discussions about their former trainer they feel wronged them (and, I do know this trainer is a piece of junk, so it’s not untrue). I just refuse to partake in that stuff. I just keep repeating “you aren’t training with her anymore, you’re successful now, move on.”
I’m going to stay true to my personal ethics. They know me and my blunt tendencies by now, and if they don’t believe I ALWAYS have the best interests of the animal in mind, I’m about to prove it.
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And, should they ever find this - know all I want is you guys to succeed in any and everything you want to do… i wouldnt keep carving out time for you if I didnt, especially now that I don’t even board where you do. But that involves seeing the horse as he is - it may be hard to believe that a 7 year old needs medical help, but it is what it is. Young horse does not equal no problems. He was started at 2 or younger, per the public auction records. We can’t push him when his body says no - he already has an iffy attitude, and right now he has a reason. You guys are a partnership, and only one of you can talk. Let’s do the right thing by your beloved horse.
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That is a rotten take on my remark – AND WHAT YOU STATE IS UNTRUE.
My remark is TRUE. And diplomatic. And keeps the door open - that’s a thing, even if not in your world.
Don’t tell me what I am thinking. I will not argue about it.
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Excellent message to them – I hope that is also your script for your meeting with them.
Also … Having processed your observation that they have just bought a LQ trailer for showing. And that obviously money is not an issue.
They will eventually buy the daughter another, fancier horse. This one will go so far. Then they will step up with more of a full-package horse, just as they did with the trailer.
Hopefully they retire her current horse to a nice grass pasture. Probably, though, they will try to sell it to the next learner who wants to show … or maybe a step up from that. Honestly the better the horse does now, the more likely that it will eventually end up with someone who will see the issues and do the right thing for it.
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I don’t think they will, and if they do, they will keep this guy.
I’ve been blunt enough to say that whenever it comes time for another horse, they will never want one with this type of attitude again. It sucks to have to MAKE a horse do every thing, instead of a willing and able partner. Physical issues or not, this horse will never have natural “try”, and that’s worth more than anything.
Maybe he had try before being ridden into the ground by age 4, we will never know.
I’m going to practice with my SO tonight to try to find the right balance of stern, caring, and optimistic.
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I was going to say the same thing as @OverandOnward, this sounds perfect!
This might sound crazy, but I wonder if they think they’re being kinder by not “sticking needles in their horse” at such a young age? I’ve known several people who claim to want the best for their horse, but they won’t get their horse the medical treatment it clearly needs. They don’t seem to see the difference between a valid medical intervention and injecting the horse willy-nilly (or even doping) for a competitive advantage.
Maybe I’m wrong, but it also sounds like their vet has convinced them that more involved vets would try to get them to do more expensive procedures as a way to line their pocketbook, not because the horse actually needs them.
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Oh, yes. I know this attitude. “He’s only 7. I can’t start injecting him (or whatever) now. It might cause him to break down earlier.”
Well, yes. Maybe.
But you’ve got a horse that is uncomfortable and underperforming now. How long will you leave this situation before you deem that the horse is of an appropriate age to intervene, and what do you expect to happen in the meantime? Because whatever it is that needs intervention now is probably going to continue to deteriorate while you dither about. And none of us are getting any younger.
Personally, I’m all about maximum comfort for the day at hand. Horsie could step in a hole tomorrow and it could all be over anyway.
Good luck!
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Same. Whatever the horse needs now.
If the horse already needs this much help at an early age, there is a short future anyway. The horse will very likely need to be retired or stepped way down in work well before the original plan.
I think people have a problem accepting that, though. They have invested in this horse, thinking it is the future. I do get that.
I suppose we all need more spare grass pasture on our property, wherever it is, to stash a few ornaments as they come up over time.
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I wouldn’t be so quick to write off that horse’s lack of try. Sure you can see a slight lameness, but there’s no telling how deep the onion can be peeled back to the root of the horse’s pain. For all we know the limb lameness could be from overcompensating from some other source of body pain. By the time we can visibly see pain, the horses have been enduring it and trying to hide it for much longer. Stoicism was a survival strategy in the wild where injured animals are picked out as easy targets. No doubt the horse is shut down from a combination of pain and training history.
Kudos to you for being willing to address this head on. All you can do is share your knowledge in the best interest of the horse, but ultimately the responsibility for the horse’s wellbeing falls on the owners. If they won’t listen to you, all you can do is remove yourself from a situation that is rightly causing you concern and draining emotional energy.
Even if your student isn’t ready to learn this lesson at this point in time, you are planting the seed.
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Those are super good points! I’ve also had I don’t even know how many conversations over the decades about how owning a horse with arthritic changes DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BAD OWNER. Arthritis happens because they are breathing in and out, not (necessarily) because you did something wrong. I wonder if these people need that same talk. Also, I wonder what his feet look like? I’ve had a couple of shut down horses in the barn, some with PSSM and a couple with really bad feet - either bad m/l balance or npa.
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It sounds like you’re making the right decision.
It’s your reputation, too. Not being involved and present if they keep pushing him and he becomes obviously lame at a show, is better for you.
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