Need advice with behavioral issue when tacking?

[Bayamare]

I have a 10 year old Morgan, TB, Percheron cross that I’ve owned for 5 years. I broke her late and she was, and is, a real wild spirit. She’s dominant and can be pushy on the ground but is usually laid back and sweet. She gets more aggressive when I tack her up, and it’s like flipping a switch. She’ll go from calm and standing with one leg cocked to walking into me and spinning in circles. No amount of ground handling can keep her from moving-- she refuses to stand still. I have the same issue when mounting unless she’s distracted.

My first thought was the saddle causing pain and making it a negative association, but I have had both my western and English saddled fitted to her, and use gel and relief pads as a precaution. I never mount from the ground and recently had my vet check her for soreness in the back and came up with nothing.

I’d like to know of exercises I can do with her to resolve the tacking issues first, then the mounting problem (hoping one might help with the other). Has anyone experienced something similar? I feel like I’ve tried everything over the past couple years and it seems to be an escalating issue. When I first broke her she still moved around a lot but didn’t spin. What do yall know?

[Dee-Vee]

Not intended to sound predictable, but treat her for ulcers. Went through this recently with my mare after trying everything saddle/girth related when a round of omeprazole (with the hind gut meds…forget the name) made all the difference. I continue to treat with EquiShure for hind gut. Barn staff too have noted that she is no longer touchy with her blankets.

It took awhile to settle the behavioural issues when tacking up. I assume that is a result of association over time.

Talk to your vet.,

Best of luck!!

[Desert_Topaz]

Do not discount the possibility of a mare related issue. My mare had mystery back pain, did a repro exam, both her ovaries had multiple huge follicles. Got her ovaries out, had to retrain her to not bite me every time I put her saddle on, and now all is well.

[SuzieQNutter]

Also teach her to stand still. So as you can groom, wash and rug without her moving. Then tacking, untacking and mounting .

[khall]

How I work with a horse that does not want to stand still i (you have to suspend what you are trying to accomplish in order to work with the mare) is to ask the horse to keep moving until they cry uncle. Not in a straight line but sideways in a circle, or if they go forward back them up twice the distance they went forward. Not harshly but firmly. So going to tack up, horse moves, stop with tacking up and keep the horse moving until she stands quietly. Go back to tacking up, if she starts to move again, again keep her moving until she says I really would like to stand now. Rinse and repeat (works for mounting as well) until she gets the picture. Never as punishment, but as in ah you want to move, OK, lets move some more! Ok you want to stop, GREAT, stop and rest, give a pat and scratch and go back to original program. Can take a bit of time, but this type of work sticks with them and gets less and less each subsequent work period.

[BeeHoney]

I have a few thoughts to add to the conversation. Some horses are sore in places other than their backs. Rib and girth areas can be tender as well. Double check to make sure there is no pinching anywhere. Give a good curry and brushing over the saddle, rib, and girth areas to check for tenderness and also to desensitize those areas.

Also, some horses have a vagal response to response to the girth being tightened. That is a neural reflex that in extreme cases can cause a horse to faint. I’m sure it’s not a good feeling, and I’m sure that a horse that suffers from this reflex could easily come to negatively anticipate it.

I would re-teach a horse like this to be tacked up, starting from the beginning, by just throwing a saddle pad over the back and expecting the horse to stand still. But, this time as things progressed, I would be certain to ALWAYS girth up VERY slowly. Saddle on the back, wait a minute, fasten the girth loosely at first, wait a bit (pick feet, brush tail, send a few texts), then cinch it up a couple holes, then walk the horse a bit and finish cinching it up. Then, don’t mount right away, longe or walk for a minute first.

[mayhew]

[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;8730629]
Also teach her to stand still. So as you can groom, wash and rug without her moving. Then tacking, untacking and mounting .[/QUOTE]

Can you be more specific?

[SuzieQNutter]

I don’t teach as the person above.

I start with leading. Click and they walk before I walk. I say halt and they halt before I halt. I say back and place my thumb on their chest for back. Always 2 signals for back. As when unloading you don’t want both horses to back when you say back. Later I teach back and a small tug on the tail and back and wave finger from side to side. One for unloading, the other for when you are not close enough to touch the horse.

Ask horse to halt where you are going to tack. They halt when you say halt. Praise. Drop the lead rope and step away. They should not follow as they have been taught to only walk with a click. I do all the normal things like pick up a brush to brush. If they go to walk they get an uh-uh. Asked to step back exactly where the were. Say halt and praise when they halt. I do this every single time they go to walk from now to ever.

They get much better by the time I tack up the first time an usually have it down pat by the 3rd time I tack up.

You can go inside to get a drink of water and they are where you left them.

For tacking, as above let the horse warm up to both the saddle and the girth. Brush where the saddle and girth go, place saddle, do the girth up very loose. Now continue to groom and pick out hooves and every now and then tighten the girth. By the time you walk to the mounting block the girth is now tight and you have taken no extra time.

[CFFarm]

Build, train her to stand at, use crossties. If you have to, put them in her stall and use them there. You can start by tying a hay bag there and grooming her. Insist she stand still. If you make it a pleasant experience it usually doesn’t take to long before they learn to stand to be worked on.

[DJohn]

Make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy.

Tack her in a round pen. If she wants to walk around, then off she goes on the longe line, to move out at a trot. Once she stops, go ahead with the grooming again. If she starts moving, off she goes again. Repeat this process a bunch of times and she will get the hint. It is a very good practice to groom on a rubber mat as well, so if the horse moves, you can always return them to the exact spot. Sometimes they don’t understand if you back them/move them around on ground that appears the same. If they have a mat to stand on, that’s the “target” and they will learn.

[Palm_Beach]

She is missing basic respect and good manners. I’d do ground work.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8731134]
She is missing basic respect and good manners. I’d do ground work.[/QUOTE]

+1

G.

[flashwhitelock]

manners

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8731134]
She is missing basic respect and good manners. I’d do ground work.[/QUOTE]

+another 1.

you can use any method you want but you MUST be consistent in every aspect with a horse that has been done later in life. I agree that you should check ulcers and reproductive. Personally I like Pavlov and just do a version of clicker training but with my voice instead of a metal clicker.

No matter what method, keep it up. You must set up situations where you always win every single step. Baby steps are fine but you must always be the winner. It starts out slowly but will make it fast in the long run. Good luck.

[sahqueen]

Have you tried different girths? I have one that was difficult and sometime dangerous to saddle…did saddle fitting, different pads, saddles, chiro, ulcer & lymes treatment with no real change…my body work guy asked about girths one day…turns out he cannot tolerate neoprene girths…switched to a wider fleece lines style and had a totally different horse from the first time it was tried.

[Pocket_Pony]

Ditto that the horse sounds like she’s lacking in the basic manners and respect department. If you started her and this is the best she’s gotten, then you need help to have someone teach her and teach you how to teach her to mind you, your space, how to stand still, etc.

Now, I still wouldn’t rule out anything physical and I’d probably call my vet who is a chiropractor to come out and look her over and see if she’s out anywhere and do chiro/acupuncture/body work as needed. I’d also double-check tack, as horse’s bodies change and what fit then might not fit now.

Then I’d start some work on training.

Personally, I would not put a horse in cross ties who doesn’t already know how to stand well. I would go in the round pen or a small arena (where you are alone) and work on ground work. If the horse wants to move, then fine - time to move. When the horse is ready to stand still, try again. Want to move some more? Great, let’s move. It isn’t about chasing the horse around to let out steam, it is purposefully moving the feet however and wherever you want and especially the hind end. This takes feel, timing, and skill, and is best if you really work with a trainer to teach you.

If you let little things add up, they will become big things. Better to get this taken care of now, even if it means that some days you just don’t ride.

[Melissa.Van_Doren]

Are you able to work with a professional trainer?

Application and timing of aids is not intuitive for many people. Some instruction may help you tremendously.

[littlebaypony]

If she’s always been squirmy for tacking I’d suspect a training issue but if she was good at one time and has gotten progressively worse I’d agree with Dee Vee, could be ulcers. My normally very sweet mare started threatening to bite when I tightened the girth. Suspecting a pain issue I asked my vet and she recommended a course of omprizole and that solved the problem. Not saying that it might not be some other pain issue but please consider possible ulcers.

[Bayamare]

[QUOTE=littlebaypony;8731601]
If she’s always been squirmy for tacking I’d suspect a training issue but if she was good at one time and has gotten progressively worse I’d agree with Dee Vee, could be ulcers.[/QUOTE]

Thank you all-- good information. I’ve started her on ulcer meds. This mate DOES know how to stand, and is respectful 90% of the time. She stands calming for brushing and grooming of all kinds, stands in crossties just fine, can plant her somewhere and throw a lead over her neck and know she’ll be right where I left her… Until I have tack in hand. The second I put a saddle on her, she’s moving. I have tried most of the common methods to get her to stand-- including going all the way back to the baby basics. I worked with a parelli trainer for a while and even she quit on us, saying flexing her in with treats and distracting her while I girthes her up was the only thing she could think of, and that works about fifty percent of the time but I don’t think of it as a genuine solution.

I don’t know another horse who can be quiet and well mannered and then flip a switch like this mare does. I put her in the round pen and work work work the second we get forward movement but the mare just doesn’t put two and two together. I’ve been working on this hard for the past year with little to no results and that’s what leads me to believe its a physical issue, like ulcers or a reproduction issue.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Bayamare;8732760]
Thank you all-- good information. I’ve started her on ulcer meds. This mate DOES know how to stand, and is respectful 90% of the time. She stands calming for brushing and grooming of all kinds, stands in crossties just fine, can plant her somewhere and throw a lead over her neck and know she’ll be right where I left her… Until I have tack in hand. The second I put a saddle on her, she’s moving. I have tried most of the common methods to get her to stand-- including going all the way back to the baby basics. I worked with a parelli trainer for a while and even she quit on us, saying flexing her in with treats and distracting her while I girthes her up was the only thing she could think of, and that works about fifty percent of the time but I don’t think of it as a genuine solution.

I don’t know another horse who can be quiet and well mannered and then flip a switch like this mare does. I put her in the round pen and work work work the second we get forward movement but the mare just doesn’t put two and two together. I’ve been working on this hard for the past year with little to no results and that’s what leads me to believe its a physical issue, like ulcers or a reproduction issue.[/QUOTE]

OK but if she’s only respectful 90% of the time then you can’t expect her to be respectful all the time, and maybe she is choosing tacking up to be her disrespectful time.

I had a super irritable guy who was awful to tack. Hint - start very simple. So I started by doing some ground work and then just tossing a saddle blanket over him. If he even pinned his ears, he went. Then stopped, I tossed, waited for his reaction and then sent if he pinned. Moved to a bareback pad, same thing. Once I could cinch up the bareback pad he was fine.

So yes, if you feel like spending the money, do all that testing. Or spend a couple sessions working with the horse to see what is really going on. Some of the grumpy ones really need a ton of sacking out to get them to “happily” accept being touched.

[Stacie]

[QUOTE=Bayamare;8732760]

I don’t know another horse who can be quiet and well mannered and then flip a switch like this mare does. [/QUOTE]
She’s telling you that something is bothering her the only way she knows how.

Saddle fit: get the best saddle fitter you know to come out. the saddle might fit great until you start adding in all the extra pads. She may have changed shape as she has gotten into work. I had a saddle made by a master saddle maker. He just came out and completely changed the panels on the saddle he made for me last year because the horse’s muscling had changed that much. The way I know I need to have him out, is she gets antsy when it’s time to tack up.

Girth: My saddle maker/fitter says the best girths have three inches of elastic on each side. Based on that we switched my husband’s horses girth from a wintec to a smartpak girth:
https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/smartpak-drilex-fleece-dressage-girth-10573

The problem we have had with her is it’s hard to get her lift her withers and round at anything other than the canter. She didn’t love being girthed, but wasn’t a problem about. Both of those issues were immediately solved with the new girth. I never would have suspected. I’m so happy she feels better.