Need help teaching diagonals

[CHT]

For some students it is translating what they are doing with what they are seeing quick enough.

So they look, see the leg is forward, but by the time their brain is processing what they are doing, they are on the way down in the post, so they think they are on the wrong diagonal.

What I would try as a test, is to say “Up, Down, Up, Down” with the horse’s outside leg, and see if by listening to you, she can tell is she is right or wrong. If she cannot, then I think it is an issue with how her brain is processing what she is doing vs what she is hearing/seeing.

If that is the case, then I would just tell her “up,down,up.down” for a while until she can match her motions with the words. Then have her look at the horse’s leg, and try to figure out when she should be saying (not doing) up, vs down without worrying about the diagonals. Next have her match what she is saying with what she is doing. Finally see if she can go right from looking at the shoulder with determining her diagonal.

But…I would only work on diagonals perhaps every second lesson and for a short period. Do not make them into something more important than they are; sometimes people get too stressed about something to be able to learn it!

[netg]

@S1969;6156702

Little kids often post on the correct diagonal before they learn what they are, because they naturally fall onto the one that feels better.[/QUOTE]

My 64 year old mom gets her diagonals for the same reason. She started posting at 62.

[QUOTE=FindersKeepers;6156827]She can post just fine, just cannot determine which diagonal she is on/should be on. She cannot see it, but I will try tape on the shoulders next time to try and help her see it.

She is insistent that we work on this every lesson and wants to get it down, and so I told her I will do whatever I can to help her. It’s just something that she wants to accomplish for herself. I suggested we let it go for awhile, but she brings it up week after week and wants to figure it out. So I cooperate.

She does not have plans to show, and it doesn’t matter overall that she knows it or not to me. However, as this is something she wants to conquer, I am willing to help and make that happen.

She is not discouraged, but week after week asks if there’s another way I can explain it to her.[/QUOTE]

Good for you that you’re trying to figure it out! I would get frustrated over her frustration when it doesn’t matter in the grand scheme - but if she cares about it, well, good for her that she’s working on it!

[QUOTE=Auburn;6156888]Have you ever thought that your student might be dyslexic?

That was the first thought I had, too. At 60 she probably would never have been diagnosed if she is.

I get the wrong diagonal every time I try. It’s like there’s a delay in my brain, so I try for a diagonal then switch. Showing eq I would do an eyes-only glance down because that’s the only way I’d get it right on the first try. I’m guessing it’s because I’m a visual learner, so seeing it my body goes with seeing the shoulder move, but feeling it doesn’t go through as well so I delay the post to the wrong leg. Can she post after she sees the shoulder come back, instead of thinking of going up with the shoulder? When I look, I think that’s what I look for rather than shoulder going forward.

[FindersKeepers]

Thanks again for the suggestions. Maybe I’ll suggest next week that we just forget about it for a lesson and work on some other things and try again 2 weeks from now.

It is definitely a time/processing issue. She can watch another rider and tell me. It’s when she needs to think and then apply that she struggles. This is true in other things that we do as well, but this is the one issue that really bothers her for whatever reason.

She almost always gets it tracking left and can tell when it “feels wrong” but tracking right, she can’t find it. It’s not the horse, as we’ve tried a few different ones to see if she can find it… maybe that’s part of the problem. She feels more comfortable posting with the left leg going forward, and then does the same thing when going the other direction. Hmmmm… maybe I’ll just try advising her if it FEELS right when tracking to the right, she needs to change it…

She can easily sit a beat and switch, she just can’t find it on her own. I’m not sure why she’s so obsessed with figuring it out, but if this is all she wants to accomplish in her lessons at this point in life, I’m happy to give her the time and help her figure it out.

[NSRider]

I’d also put the horse on a lunge and ask her to say when a specific leg is going forward (hind-leg, fore, whichever!) Now once she gets that, get her to dismount, and look at the horse while it trots to see what the legs are doing, to see what the leg she was following with her seat is doing on the ground (connect feel with what she sees). Then ask her to remount and feel again where that leg is going. If she can feel the hind legs better, ask her to follow the inside hind leg, vice versa for fore-leg.

Hope this helps!

[K111]

I never had trouble knowing if i was right or wrong, but I would have to LOOk to be sure. My trainer finally had enough and for a month I rode with my eyes closed to develop the feel so I wouldn’t have to look.

[bits619]

I don’t know how helpful it would be, but I have to practically THROW my outside hip forward at that first post. I focus on outside hip movement and I can only really throw the outside hip forward in time with the correct diagonal.

How about canter to posting trot transitions? Those always get me on the correct diagonal without trying- i just have to have more support in my thighs rather than sitting heavy on my butt (then the hips can swing more freely). But it is surprising that no matter the direction i always get the right diagonal when down transitioning from the canter.
It may not help her learn how to pick them up, but to feel how your hips can swing in that correct motion- and what that feels like.

[charlo]

I’m like your student…I have a great seat, can jump ride cross county etc, but for the life of me cannot get the correct diagonals…just couldn’t do it till…

I had a dressage coach tell me think of a straight line starting with the inside leg and going through my body…ding ding ding. Now when I have to check, I check to see if I’m straight with the inside leg. It also helped that she made me watch other lessons, and look for the straight line through their bodies.

[ccoronios]

Ditto the “backwards” directions (working with the inside leg rather than the outside). YEARS ago, I was a camp riding director and one of my young students had a similar ‘blockage’. Another youngster was standing in the ring with me one afternoon and asked if she could try telling the rider what to do. I said “Sure!” She explained it as down when the inside shoulder was forward/up when it was back - and the rider got it immediately and never missed again.

I can’t even SEE them ‘backwards’ - but that once, for one child, it was the solution.

Good luck to her! And you…

Carol

[supaflyskye]

[QUOTE=FindersKeepers;6157382]

She almost always gets it tracking left and can tell when it “feels wrong” but tracking right, she can’t find it. It’s not the horse, as we’ve tried a few different ones to see if she can find it… maybe that’s part of the problem. She feels more comfortable posting with the left leg going forward, and then does the same thing when going the other direction. Hmmmm… maybe I’ll just try advising her if it FEELS right when tracking to the right, she needs to change it… [/QUOTE]

I’ll bet she’s very right handed. Try having her work on some exercises w/ her left side at home to improve ambidexterity, and see if after a little while the diagonal doesn’t come more naturally.

I say this because I am extremely right handed and pretty much can’t pick up the left diagonal(so tracking right). I can instantly feel if I pick it up wrong and change it almost before I’ve even start to go up, but if I actually pick up the correct one to start it’s mostly luck. I’ve worked on it for years and years, I’ve had trainers scream at me that it’s ridiculous, and I can’t take anymore lessons until I can reliably pick up both diagonals, I’ve focused on nothing else for months …but I can’t seem to do it.
Sounds strange, but I can’t even imagine, in my mind, myself riding on the left diagonal, it just does not work in my brain.

[2ndyrgal]

You have one of those

I have truly, seen pros, who could never ever get their diagonals right. I’ve had students that rode for years and couldn’t ever get it right.

The only thing I ever did that helped anyone (and we’re talking about the ones that are ALWAYS on the wrong diagonal) was to tell them when they first start to posting, just sit the bounce twice and go with it. You can also have the student look at a trusted friend in the show ring and look for either a nod or a head shake.

Some of them ride well for years and just never get it.

The last horse I had was easy to the left, but to the right, he almost always pushed me up on the wrong diagonal every time. I could tell, but for some reason, he just made me miss.

Ride her horse, he may go so flat and short that she really can’t tell.

[llsc]

Trust me. Put the tape on both shoulders and let her ride around looking at both sides until she can tell which shoulder she is standing with. You can put her on the lunge so she doesn’t have to steer, if it will make her more confortable.

The rise and fall with the leg on the wall doesn’t work until you can tell which leg you are standing with and that is the problem with people who can’t “see” their diagional.

It will probably take some time, but she will figure it out that way. Works every time.

[PonyPenny]

I would never let my daughter look for her diagonals. When she first started to ride we had a signal, thumbs up for correct, thumbs down for incorrect. After awhile she naturally just started picking them correctly because it felt right. She never was allowed to check her leads either by looking down. Looking down becomes a crutch for some people that they do it all the time even when they know they are correct. Take the pressure off the diagonals and use a signal system until she gradually gets it. I get the feeling she was pressured to see it and that blocks her ability to feel it.

[Mukluk]

I think this poor lady is trying too hard!!! How about a nice glass of wine. Then get on Dobbin and do a nice warm up at a walk. Then do sitting trot. When it’s time for posting trot just have her start posting. Immediately comment “oh that’s fabulous!” If she asks if she is on the right one tell her “Yes. that’s the right one for now.” Let her go around a lap. Ask her how that felt. Assuming she can switch diagonals have her change diagonals do a lap. How did that feel? Maybe she will notice maybe not. You know like at the eye doctor “better 1? better 2?” Or how about pick up a diagonal-any diagonal will do and do a serpentine with say 4-5 loops. Does she notice any difference between the left loops and the right loops while on the same diagonal? It seems that the ideal solution would be to learn to feel the diagonal. At any rate I hope she has fun! And remind her at any given time, she has a 50% chance of getting it right!!!

[Dewey]

Maybe this video will help her visual the diagonal beats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zdTn02PWQ&feature=related

[bizbachfan]

I feel her pain, as a rider of 40 years I “lost” my ability to “get” my diagonals after many many years of trail riding where it really didn’t matter which I was on. I favor my right diagonal and when I went back to work in the ring I never picked up the left diagonal naturally. One thing I did was go trailriding and concentrate on staying on the left diagonal for most of the ride. Now I still pick up the right diagonal most of the time but I feel it right away and just sit and change right away. It’s probably not going to win me an equitation class but it works for me and at least if she could do that way she would feel like she “accomplished” getting the correct diagonals. Let he know she is not alone

[FindersKeepers]

She is a very anxious woman and very hard on herself. From what she has shared, she has been through a lot of instructors that were not kind or patient. Her first lesson, everytime I would make a suggestion/correction, she would apologize and then promise to do better next time.

I am a strong supporter of positive reinforcement and patience and finding out why a student starts lessons, where they want to end up and what their timeline is for getting there. I’m a small operation and we just have fun and work on being safe and balanced. So by the end of our first lesson, I finally got her to stop apologizing for making mistakes and told her she’s spending her time and money to learn, not to show and that I’m here to help. She said she didn’t want to waste my time. So we had a good heart to heart and she relaxed and will now at least smile while she’s riding.

Maybe next week, I’ll tack up one of mine and we’ll go out on the trail and see if a change of scenery and more relaxed setting (not an arena) will help her.

And I will definitely tell her that she’s not alone in this diagonal struggle!

[Go_fast_and_win]

Do you have a BIG slow strided horse she could ride? One of my students took 6 years to figure out her diagonals and she finally got it on a 17 hand slow strided horse. The way the horse went slowed the process down enough so that she could see it and catch up to the right diagonal. Once she learned it on this horse, it translated to her own horse.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=FindersKeepers;6158451]
She is a very anxious woman and very hard on herself. From what she has shared, she has been through a lot of instructors that were not kind or patient. Her first lesson, everytime I would make a suggestion/correction, she would apologize and then promise to do better next time. [/QUOTE]

Awww. :no: Yes, she’s definitely trying too hard.

I do like the video linked above.

But I’d also tell her that the more she tries to work on “getting” the diagonal, she’s taking away from other things - balance, feel, connection with her horse. I agree with you - tell her that you don’t want to work on it for a few weeks and just do something else.

I had a trainer tell me “the more time and energy you spend telling me what (or explaining why) you can’t do is just taking away from showing me what you CAN do.”

Sounds like she’s had some bad instructors.

[bits619]

I think the serpentine loop exercise while maintaining one diagonal would help me really feel the incorrect diagonal, especially if the loops are fairly small.

I was stuck in getting the wrong diagonal for a while when I was first reriding. My trainer would say ‘posting trot’ and id be so concerned with responding promptly that I wouldn’t take the few strides to think, to feel for the diagonal. My trainer actually told me (for this, and for ALL transitions) not to worry about doing it immediately after she says- she’d rather have me collect myself think about the aids to use and the feeling/timing of the stride and THEN act. Emphasize that you don’t want her to feel rushed to pick up a posting trot right at your command.
Also, perhaps if you do something like saying aloud ‘Now… Now… Now’ during the sitting trot, have her say it along with you for a few strides (or as many as she likes) then she can choose when to start posting. If she likes, she can look down as you’re saying now to see what that looks like (especially with tape on the shoulders), or if on a lunge she could close her eyes as you say it to focus on the feel.

Your best bet is probably to leave it be for a few weeks and focus on the things she’s really good at I know how frustrating that can be as a rider, especially one who hates to mess up! And diagonals are tough because it’s so easy to get stuck in the WRONG rhythm.

[pwrpfflynn]

I had my kids watch the “leg on the wall” & then say “up” to themselves as it goes forward if they weren’t “up” I would tell them to bounce & get the correct one or call out “up” to them to help them see it.