Need help teaching diagonals

[KateKat]

I agree that she is probably putting too much pressure on herself to get this done! I have found sometimes when I step away from something for awhile, during that time the connections in my brain have time to form or something (lol) and when I come back, 99% of the time its better. I think a lot of it is I spend some time imagining I’m doing it correctly. So during that time tell her to imagine herself posting on the correct diagonal for a few minutes a day and watch some videos. Other than that, just work on exercises that are relaxed and help with her sense of feel, and then pick it up again once she has relaxed a bit and done her visualization work.

I have found that the lunge line with eyes closed also really helps (at least, it helped me a lot!). I’m a total overthinker, and sometimes having all the senses is a little too much info overload. Taking away my sense of sight really helps me feel what is going on.

[Mukluk]

Maybe it’s like teaching how to turn in skiing. Most 1st time beginner adults can turn if you tell them ski straight in a wedge and then point your wedge at those trees (on the side of the run). A technical explanation of about how more weight goes to the outside ski and some rotation of upper body in the direction of the turn usually results in a wipe out. It sounds like she has had lots of technical “what to do stuff” in her past that hasn’t worked. Plus I imagine she puts so much pressure on herself that she can’t absorb it anyway. I think there should be no pressure to “get” diagonals. Just work on feeling the horses gait. Maybe figure 8s on one diagonal would help to notice which circle “feels better”- hopefully one does. I think she needs time and patience and to not focus on “getting it right.” I have a feeling one day she will have an “ah ha” moment and it will come together for her. Tell her I’m wishing her the best!!! Have you let her see all the replies here?

[Arizona_DQ]

[QUOTE=FindersKeepers;6156670]
.
I have tried the “ride and fall with leg on the wall” and have her look at the shoulders. .[/QUOTE]

I wandered over from the Dressage forum when I saw the name of this thread and want to THANK YOU! As an “older” re-rider, I have struggled to remember which leg to follow, now with that little jingle, I have no problem at all !!! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!:winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin:

[bizbachfan]

Please do let us know how she does!

[AlyssaSpellman]

I used to have a really hard time picking up the right diagonal tracking right. I could tell when I was wrong, but I’d always pick up the incorrect one and have to change it. To help with this, I would sit the trot looking straight ahead, and pick up a post when I felt it was correct to. Maybe she can try this over and over?

[apugirl]

I think I can help…

So it took me quite a few years to learn to feel my diagonals and now I feel like I can teach anyone. I have a five step process.

1st: have her sit the trot
2nd: tell her to feel how her hips move slightly to the inside and slightly to the outside with the stride. You, as an instructor, can see if she is able to “feel” it. If she just bounces up and down with the trot or if she is able to move her seat forward and in/out with the trot. I have found the word, “shimmy” helps a lot of people. Its a shimmy to the inside & a shimmy to the outside.

3rd: When she feels that tell her to say “now” or “up” when she feels her hips going to the inside, but DO NOT raise with the “now” or up. She is just saying it, no posting.

4th: have her walk and then start the process over until she is reliably saying it properly. most of my students get this right away. You need some student (esp. younger students) to walk in between cause they will cheat and just keep track of what is correct in the head.

5th: then have her start the process and say up five times correctly and on the sixth time have her stand in her stirrups when she says up. Most students will actually stand right after they say “up” and sit when they say up because of the second it take for the message to go from the butt to the their brain to their legs. And this is why they get it wrong. They feel it, but then they rise incorrectly and so you tell them they are wrong. They are feeling right, just executing it a split second late.

Have her practice that using the verbal up and make sure she raises when she says up. Like I said, most students will say “up” then rise, “up” then rise.

After that it just takes practice. I seriously have been able to teach all of my students within 10-15 minutes. It took me year to figure out that I was feeling it right and just coming up late. Hope this makes sense and if it does, hope it helps.

[khobstetter]

colored tape

[QUOTE=FindersKeepers;6156827]
She can post just fine, just cannot determine which diagonal she is on/should be on. She cannot see it, but I will try tape on the shoulders next time to try and help her see it.

She is insistent that we work on this every lesson and wants to get it down, and so I told her I will do whatever I can to help her. It’s just something that she wants to accomplish for herself. I suggested we let it go for awhile, but she brings it up week after week and wants to figure it out. So I cooperate.

She does not have plans to show, and it doesn’t matter overall that she knows it or not to me. However, as this is something she wants to conquer, I am willing to help and make that happen.

She is not discouraged, but week after week asks if there’s another way I can explain it to her.[/QUOTE]

Go to HomeDepot/Lowes and get 2 colors of duct tape or masking tape. Put a piece of one on each shoulder at the point of the shoulder…then teach her to sit with the red one and then sit with the blue one. When she can do that then it will be easier to determine the diagonals withOUT the tape. Make it about sitting with the color and not about the diagonal and you will be surprised how easy it can get. Worked for dozens and dozens of kids for me over the years…

[Faye]

I totally should try this (pardon me reviving this old thread). I know what I’m supposed to do, but for the life of me I can’t freakn do it.

I think my prob is by the time I see the shoulder up, it’s already too late, and when trainer is right there, I felt stupid to take forever to sit and say to myself up down up down, i usually just start posting and hope that it’s right and wait for trainer to yell at my diagonals.

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=Napoles;6156689]
Can she not just take a peek down and realise that she should be sitting when the outside shoulder is coming back?[/QUOTE]

I had a lot of trouble with diagonals at first. What helped me was watching Youtube videos. I knew I had to be rising as the shoulder was coming forward. And for those who suggest “feeling it”, my mare has the most lovely trot (she is part Friesian) and I can’t feel it as her trot is so smooth. For those of us coming back into riding and new to this, it’s hard to feel it. But now I glance down at the outside shoulder to make sure I’m correct.

[Hippolyta]

I have been riding for so long, and I still really don’t feel my diagonals. If I think about it, sometimes I can, but I do seriously believe that I have some sort of spatial cognitive issue.

Anyway, I still just do a quick glance down (eyes only!) to check & I think I can do this effectively. Used to do saddle seat eq classes, where the judge notices any deviation whatsoever from position, and you couldn’t even have one out of sync rise, and I always did fine. I think my peek is surreptitious enough & it doesn’t seem to get me off balance.

As I said, I have weird spatial issues & I find that if I think about stuff too hard (for example, ask for x when y leg is doing z) & I just can’t do it. If I try for sloppy & I can get correct. If I try for correct & it won’t happen

There is an woman at our barn that has been riding for 20 yrs & has trouble with her diag’ls. Trainer thinks that maybe rider’s little horse is so short strided it is hard for her to keep up (as someone above says, by the time you realize what is moving where, it isn’t anymore).

[Satin_Filly]

I had a really hard time learning my diagonals as a kid, and the only way i figured it out was by feeling. Put her on the longe line, have her close her eyes, and ask her “right or wrong?”. When she has it right, tell her and let her continue trotting on the correct diagonal for a couple circles. Then have her sit a beat to switch to the wrong diagonal and let her feel the difference. Then switch back to the correct and see if she can feel the difference. This probably won’t click in one lesson. But it should eventually.

[CS]

Another vote for two different colors of duck tape [Right is red and Left is leafy (green)]. Fair warning - tape quickly comes off the shoulder when mixed with sweat and fly spray.

You may want to try the drugstore variety temporary spray-on hair color. In the old days we used a spot of Furuzone on the shoulder. Anything florescent is easy to see quickly.

Something else to think about. Ask her about her eyesight! DD is nearsighted in the right eye and farsighted in the left. She has no problem with the left diagonal/lead, but is still inconsistent with the right diagonal/lead. She is slowly beginning to trust what she feels instead of what she sees.

Lastly because her confidence in her own abilities is suffering, remind her to trust what she feels and not what she sees (counterintuitive but she needs to stop second guessing herself.)

Edited to add: My mother (way, way back in the day) was taught the opposite. Look at the inside shoulder and when it comes back - you go up. It might be just enough ‘outside the box’ that it could work for your student.

[jaysjmpr]

Diagonals

Sometimes I have found adults tend to over think and forget to feel. I she is secure enough a slower, bouncy horse. Lunge line, grab strap. Trot slowly on lunge, eyes open tell her when she is correct and keep count of that. A bit of a slower horse works better. Have her close her eyes but still keep track of diag. I have them say right or left, what leg they are risibg with.

With her eyes closed she will still post and call side. Slowly have her sit, not too deep almost a bit of a bounce. I tell them to post with their hip but not let their butt leave the tack. They may only be able to keep track for half circle or so to start, so after 10 steps or so I have them post again. Still counting side. Organize then sit again, still keeping count and still letting hip follow back. Slowly they will start to be able to start on the correct diag.

I hope that is not too confusing, by keeping her brain busy counting and her hip following she will start to learn to feel.

[Emily_amp_Jake]

The way I was taught (at fair, by the judge none the less!!) was to rise when the outside leg is forward, sit when it’s back. And it clicked for me, and I’d never done diagonals before.
Now of course I would rather post than sit the trot. Depending on the day/what horse I’m riding, I struggle with one or the other diagonal.

[alterhorse]

On the correct diagonal a riders pelvis will rock towards the outside slightly as they come down into the tack. This is because the horse will drop it’s hip as a hind leg leaves the ground to travel forwards to begin the next step of the trot.

When the horses outside hip is dropping, so is the hip of seated rider. If the rider is in the tack as the horses outside hind is coming forward, then the rider is in the tack as the diagonal inside foreleg is coming forward.

If the rider then rises in to the posting trot after their outside hip falls, they will be rising out of the tack as the inside hind and the diagonal outside foreleg are both coming forwards.

The key to remembering this is that when you sit while posting you feel for the downward give of the saddle as your outside seat bone sits. If instead of a comfortable downward give, you instead feel an upward jolt on your outside seat bone, your diagonal is wrong.

When on the correct diagonal, after you sit feeling your outside hip dropping, you can next feel the upward thrust on your outside seat bone helping to push you out of the saddle as you rise to post.

If you were to sit the trot instead, You would feel each of your seat bones falling alternately as your horse brings each of his hind legs forwards to take each trot step. A rider with a stiff pelvis who does not allow their pelvis to relax and rock side to side with the motion of the trotting horses back is a primary reason why some beginner riders have difficulty sitting the trot.

This is why a good trainer might say sitting the trot has a rider hip motion that feels something like peddling a bicycle.

[Dewey]

Just for the record, this is an old thread.

[DreamBignRide]

Try putting a sticker right above the horses knee. When she can see the sticker, she should be rising etc…

[DreamBignRide]

[QUOTE=Dewey;7140990]
Just for the record, this is an old thread.[/QUOTE]

Whoops

[bits619]

[QUOTE=alterhorse;7140877]

The key to remembering this is that when you sit while posting you feel for the downward give of the saddle as your outside seat bone sits. If instead of a comfortable downward give, you instead feel an upward jolt on your outside seat bone, your diagonal is wrong.

When on the correct diagonal, after you sit feeling your outside hip dropping, you can next feel the upward thrust on your outside seat bone helping to push you out of the saddle as you rise to post.

(snip)

This is why a good trainer might say sitting the trot has a rider hip motion that feels something like peddling a bicycle.[/QUOTE]

These parts of your post really clicked with me! Especially the gentle give of the saddle versus a pushback. Thanks! (even though this is an old thread I think it’s a common enough problem that the info in it is still helpful :))

Any chance of an update from the op?

[Comfortably_Numb]

Remember the human staple? She is at this point now! I found the hint saying to touch the horse’s shoulder to be a good thought! I will be trying that tonight, since tape and small circles have not worked!