hey yall! this is my first time posting here so apologies if i’m a little all over the place. I’m currently an ammy on the road towards going pro working and selling some young ottbs. i have a 4 year old mare who has picked up some bad habits from her previous owner who for lack of better verbiage was scared of her after being dumped. this mare is incredibly athletic and when she is quiet she is stunning. however her exercising of bad habits is more frequent than her “good days” and she will either rush though gaits or grab hold of the bit then slam the breaks and buck, or decide to “spook” and try to spin me off every 10 steps for an hour straight (she has succeeded in getting me off only once lol). all in all I have ridden this mare enough to know her capabilities and intentions and to me it seems like she needs a major attitude adjustment. she doesn’t like being told what to do and will either try to spin you off, buck you off, or dead stop and rear (which I have even less patience with than the bucking and spooking). to be honest I am really losing patience and hope with this mare because she is very smart, but uses that edge to spook her riders and get out of work but is persistent enough that what little work I am able to do with her is not very successful. she has the potential to make an incredibly talented horse for someone and im running out of ideas with her. I have tried many things to keep her engaged because I feel like maybe she is easily bored however she has now figured out and started to reject these exercises and has become increasingly more “dirty”. I have also tried to simply ride her through it but I am not willing to do that at the expense of getting thrown/nearly thrown every ride. she is well broke and I know she is able to do good work just doesn’t want to. and yes she has been thoroughly vetted, teeth floated, great feet etc. I would greatly appreciate any new insight and ideas on working her through this sourness because it is on the track to turning quite dangerous.
As long as pain/medical issues have been ruled out. It might be time for cowboy or colt starter.
Ulcers? Pain? Had to ask because these are “the usual suspects“ - I’m sure you’ll hear similar from others.
I have a smart homebred mare who was similar.
It took me years to realize her issue was discomfort. Not pain in the traditional sense; my gosh we had gone over her with a fine tooth comb.
But, she is sensitive to a lot of stuff: fleece, girth shape, mouthpiece shape, etc. And unlike a lot of horses, she never “gets over it.”
For example, I used to have these fleece-lined boots I’d put on her for schooling over fences. I joked I would have a bad ride every time I used those boots. Well newsflash— it WAS the boots. Yet she never rubbed the boots or acted irritated when I’d put them on. But during our ride she would get more and more tense until she was spooking, bolting, spinning, etc.
She hates jointed bits without tongue relief. She never had bridling problems. She was always kind of fussy in the bridle, but not in a consistent manner. Sometimes she would be super sensitive to any contact, other times she would take the bit and lug. I tried a tongue relief bit quite by accident and she was like a new horse in the bridle instantly.
Do I think your horse hates fuzzy boots and bits without tongue relief? Probably not. But it’s possible your mare is a weirdo like mine and uses her antics to try to communicate that something little is bothering her.
This already sounds very dangerous to me. Trying to spin you off repeatedly for an hour or stopping cold and rearing are both extremely unsafe, and one owner has already moved her on due to her behavior.
She is trying to tell you something is wrong. How thoroughly has she been vetted? I assume she’s been scoped for ulcers? Full set of x-rays? I’d absolutely get the vet back out for that, and/or haul to the nearest good clinic and make a plan for diagnostics. I recently had a friend with a very lovely but often explosive 5 yr old OTTB discover he had a major issue with his cervical vertabrae, similar to Wobbler’s but possibly caused by a trauma (current theory is he reared and flipped at some point on the track). This was found via bone scan after months of kissing spine treatment - it wasn’t his back, it was his neck.
It’s possible it’s not that serious and can be resolved - if she’s sensitive it could be that her saddle doesn’t fit 100% plus she has mild ulcers and it’s just more than she can handle. But the more you can rule out pain-wise, the better.
If you’re working toward being a pro - what does your trainer/mentor say? How is she on the lunge and on the ground?
Yep, we need to know how she is on the ground and on the lunge. If she’s perfectly well behaved in the barn and on the lunge, that narrow stuff down a bit.
A) Shes likely not being “dirty”, she is doing what she has been taught, intentionally or not. They are only what we teach them to be.
B) She could be reacting in defense because she hurts and has been hurting for some time.
C) Both A and C.
Word of advice here. As an emerging Pro, take care to pick horses you know you can work with. Nobody has the patience, nerves and skill set to work well with everything. Nobody. Its a waste of time and money to take on anything that comes your way and try to figure them out after you get them home. Sooner or later you get one you just don’t click with and don’t have the skill set and/or money for extensive vet diagnostics, procedures and continuing meds to keep them comfortable. One of those easily can wipe out any profits from the good ones.
All you have is your reputation. That is judged by the horses you turn out and your perceived honesty and fairness. Protect these, be careful what you take on.
Its when and how bad you get hurt, not if. Protect yourself too. Select horses you will resell for success- theres plenty out there.
thank you all for the replies! she lunges great for those who have mentioned that, and she has indeed been vetted for ulcers and things of the spinal variety. i’ll most likely experiment with some different saddles, bits, etc to rule out other possible equipment discomforts and see how that goes. Its really quite a shame because she has worked out very very nicely in the past numerous times so I know she is capable. She’s always been a bit spunky anyway, so perhaps she’s just in some sort of funk or developed a recent dislike of her tack and is letting me know very dramatically😂 thank y’all again!
Frankly I’d move on.
A) It’s one thing for a smart and athletic horse to learn some bad habits from their nervous owner, figure out how to push those buttons, and escalate from there. But if you’re going Pro, I’m making some assumptions about your skill and experience level. After a few sessions of trying those tactics and having them NOT work, the horse should be sighing in resignation, and turning into a solid citizen. The fact that she’s not, many, many rides later, to me, is a red flag that there’s still something very wrong. Whether that’s something minor that’s blowing her mind or something physical that just hasn’t been identified is impossible to know, but it sounds like just a question of time until you or someone else gets hurt.
B) If it’s mental, sometimes changing the environment can help. Taking the mare on a long trail ride with other horses, for example, might get her so focused on footing and terrain, and following others, that she forgets to think about being angry about making circles, or the fleece boots that she hates (for example). Of course, if she’s still in pain, now you’re further at risk because you’re dealing with a bolting/bucking/rearing horse out in the woods.
C) As @findeight says, a Pro’s success is all about their reputation. Even if you do have some good rides on this horse, maybe even in public, those tricks are always going to be there, and selling said horse, even with full disclosure, is a pretty big risk.
D) Not every horse is reformable. Pick and choose wisely. You don’t want to get hurt, and you really don’t want an owner or a buyer to get hurt on a horse you’re responsible for. I’m not generally one to advise giving up, but what you describe sounds dangerous, and honestly, goes beyond the kind of behavior I’d expect to see from a horse that just doesn’t feel like working after being allowed to get away with poor performance with other riders. I suspect there’s some sort of physical issue that just hasn’t been identified yet.
If she has worked nicely in the past but is sour now, something is wrong in the way of discomfort or tack fit or pain. Have a looking at the recent thread about working with a very nervous first horse. Horse vetted sound, began giving newbie owner grief, turns out to have kissing spine.
Very often these horses seem to have “learned” the behavior from a previous owner but it’s that they’ve shown the problems with the previous owner who couldn’t solve them.
OTTB are spicy but they don’t come off the track as rodeo string broncos. They are however sensitive flowers and prone to hidden issues like neck C6 deformity and kissing spines.
I also knew a nicely bred WB mare started late that behaved like that and at age 17 finally the current owners discovered she had an impacted wolf tooth that was causing her constant pain in a bit.
Etc
When, exactly, was this done and what tests or imaging were performed?
This is what I was thinking IF she’s really not in pain or discomfort. Start from scratch, just do leisurely trail walks. Throw a western saddle on if you have one that fits. Don’t ask much, just relaxation. Do this for a LONG time. Months, maybe. It helps with fitness, too.
I do have a friend that had a mare who had big issues, and her issues were “female” related. I’m not sure what girl-parts bothered her, but they were definitely girl parts. Sorry for lack of correct info, but it may be worth checking into. (It may have been ovaries related.)
Also how exactly do you lunge. Free running around a round yard or withva lunge rein and in side reins?
OP, more information will help get better advice. Dont be afraid or embarrased, most of us have already made mistakes and learned the hard way. Just trying to help you avoid the same mistakes. Doubt you can come up with anything at least some of us haven’t already dealt with.
On the turning Pro front…as a Pro you don’t get to indulge your personal tastes and dreams. Your income depends on making up horses other people want to buy, ride and show. Horses you would put a child, novice adult or rusty middle aged rerider on without praying nothing goes wrong until its iff the property. Those are the horses that can build your reputation and business.
This mare will, at best, take a ton of time to erase her past 4 years or more- do you have proof of her foaling date? She should be chipped, your vet can read it and you can contact JC for her breeding and foaling date plus research racing record. If I am your prospective buyer, I WANT that info and will pay more then for an unknown grade horse of unknown age with unknown history.
If you plan on keeping her as a personal horse or long term project? What about her makes you think she would appeal to a buyer or fit into your lesson/ lease program? Think carefully here, thats a big part of being a successful Pro. If you can’t afford expensive vet work, will a buyer want to take it on?
Years ago, did some buying and selling. Had a partner. Broke at least even for several years, made a little some years. But we were very careful what we bought and looked for attitude. Never bought anything we had to make excuses for. To be sure, these were cheap horses with many unknowns but we never kept anything that started going the wrong way shortly after we started work. Thats a skill that runs many Pros out of the business.
Just sing the old song know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away and know when to run when honestly evaluating horses as a Pro.
If you have a steady income from outside sources or a lucrative job you will keep doing while also training? Ignore above advice.
One thing I have noticed on COTH is that feed is very rarely mentioned as a cause of bad behaviour. Here on my soggy island, incorrect feed is recognised as being the root of many behavioural problems. High fibre, low sugar can work wonders. Reduce grain, cut out molasses, add plenty of chaff. Feed the horse for the amount of work it really does.
That is a good point, but I think high feed/wrong feed will not usually cause an hour-long fight. I could be wrong, though.
Because almost no one in the US is feeding low fiber, high sugar, molasses-filled feed anymore.
And if they are, they aren’t the types to be asking the internet for advice.
Agreed with this. If you want to be a pro, start thinking like a pro now. No one cares if an ammy sinks a year of time and money into a difficult horse without making much progress, but that does not reflect well on a young professional at all. As you’re building a business and a name, you will almost definitely have to take on some quirky horses, projects, ones needing a bit of rehab, etc — but if you can’t turn those horses into solid citizens pretty quickly, they need to move on or people will begin to question your skills and judgement.
My TB was unrideable on any amount of alfalfa. Jekyll and Hyde. On grass or oat hay, he’s a kid’s horse.
Now that he’s older, he can have one flake of it, but not while he was in work. Maybe a few cubes as a treat, but that’s it.
So most people on here are (very talented and knowledgeable) ammies. Hardly anyone on here flips OTTBs for a living. A lot of us would probably sink more time and money into this horse than a young pro would.
As a starting pro, you’re going to have to do the math to see if it even makes sense trying to get a profitable result here. You’re talking thousands in diagnostics and then thousands more in treatment.
If not pain related then really restarting slowly is months of your time.
If I had to make a living from this, this horse would be a free giveaway to someone I knew and trusted or retire to a field for a year or two, pull back and and see what you’ve got.
