Need new eyes on the topic... mare is too smart for her (and my) own good. first post and looking for advice!

[Scribbler]

@annieszczepanik

hey yall! this is my first time posting here so apologies if i’m a little all over the place. I’m currently an ammy on the road towards going pro working and selling some young ottbs. i have a 4 year old mare who has picked up some bad habits from her previous owner who for lack of better verbiage was scared of her after being dumped. this mare is incredibly athletic and when she is quiet she is stunning. however her exercising of bad habits is more frequent than her “good days” and she will either rush though gaits or grab hold of the bit then slam the breaks and buck, or decide to “spook” and try to spin me off every 10 steps for an hour straight (she has succeeded in getting me off only once lol). all in all I have ridden this mare enough to know her capabilities and intentions and to me it seems like she needs a major attitude adjustment. she doesn’t like being told what to do and will either try to spin you off, buck you off, or dead stop and rear (which I have even less patience with than the bucking and spooking). to be honest I am really losing patience and hope with this mare because she is very smart, but uses that edge to spook her riders and get out of work but is persistent enough that what little work I am able to do with her is not very successful. she has the potential to make an incredibly talented horse for someone and im running out of ideas with her. I have tried many things to keep her engaged because I feel like maybe she is easily bored however she has now figured out and started to reject these exercises and has become increasingly more “dirty”. I have also tried to simply ride her through it but I am not willing to do that at the expense of getting thrown/nearly thrown every ride. she is well broke and I know she is able to do good work just doesn’t want to. and yes she has been thoroughly vetted, teeth floated, great feet etc. I would greatly appreciate any new insight and ideas on working her through this sourness because it is on the track to turning quite dangerous.

The more I think about this the more I think pain.

This horse is 4. If she came off the track at 2 or 3 what kind of letdown or re-schooling did she really have? Did she go to a clueless newbie that got promptly tossed? How long did she stay there?

I would assume this horse has no significant re-schooling and has unaddressed pain issues which could be just tensions and ulcers or something more serious.

I agree with the advice about being really choosy in future with project horses. As an analogy, the top colleges in the USA can boast of their students success later in life because they are so careful to admit only students who are obviously going to be successful. It’s a clever and self perpetuating strategy.

Now some trainers carve out a niche for themselves as fixing problem horses, but even they tend to take on clients horses, not buy problem horses themselves. “Owner selling cheap because they got tossed” is a huge red flag. Most owners who come off “innocently” because of a minor stupid spook while they were not paying attention or get jumped out of the tack don’t get so afraid they sell their horse.

If you do have a “problem horse” and things have escalated to this degree with you, it’s not behavior only, it’s pain.

I would suggest you not get on this horse again until you’ve put a bunch of diagnostics into her, and if that’s too expensive at the moment then try to put her in a herd on a field for a year to relax and move around which can fix a lot of stuff.

[ZuzusPetals]

@Texarkana

Because almost no one in the US is feeding low fiber, high sugar, molasses-filled feed anymore.

How I miss the aroma of that stuff. Mmmmm.

[Scribbler]

@ZuzusPetals

@Texarkana

Because almost no one in the US is feeding low fiber, high sugar, molasses-filled feed anymore.

How I miss the aroma of that stuff. Mmmmm.

I fed my horse sweet feed in the 1970s and snacked on it myself when I was at the barn. She was a little bottle rocket. If I thought I could make my current horse that hot Id feed it as an experiment but I think we’d just get obese and founder.

[CBoylen]

This is not a sales horse. You may be able to find the magic button and fix whatever it is, but it will always revert to the same behavior whenever something is wrong. Horses do not change who they are. Some horses can deal with things that are not right, whether that thing is a physical issue or a management issue, and still continue to do their jobs. Some cannot. The ones that cannot, you can fix the current issue, but the behavior is always going to be there lurking, ready for a new person or the next owner to make a mistake or the next time something is uncomfortable. A reputable professional can’t put their name behind that kind of horse.

[ZuzusPetals]

What did it taste like? Was always so tempted but inevitably a fellow barn rat would talk about rodents trucking through the bins…

And is it my imagination but did baled shavings in the ‘70s and ‘80s often contain a scrap of mink fur or some such? The story went that the oil kept shavings from turning to dust? God, this may have been a fever dream.

[Montanas_Girl]

@CBoylen

Some horses can deal with things that are not right, whether that thing is a physical issue or a management issue, and still continue to do their jobs. Some cannot. The ones that cannot, you can fix the current issue, but the behavior is always going to be there lurking, ready for a new person or the next owner to make a mistake or the next time something is uncomfortable.

100% this.

[Scribbler]

It tasted like granola.

In the 1970s and 80s we got our shavings by the ton from the sawmill and kept them under a tarp. We chipped in bought for the whole barn (5 teen girls doing self board in a local backyard with no adult supervision). I was appalled to discover bedding by the bag when I returned to riding in the oughts.

[SuzieQNutter]

It doesn’t matter if you are an ammie or thinking of going pro.

Every time you interact with a horse you are training it. Every time you train it, the horse is a little bit better or a little bit worse.

If it is a little bit better every day, the horse on next Monday is a lot better than last Monday and so on and so forth. The horse gets better and better. You are on the right track. Trust yourself and onward and upward.

If the opposite is true and the horse is a bit worse every time you train it, then the horse on next Monday is a lot worse on next Monday. Things go downhill fast. Get a good trainer sooner rather than later.

The same is true if the horse is the same next Monday with no improvement. Horses learn faster than riders. If the horse is not learning you need lessons to learn more.

[punchy]

If it’s truly not pain related,
If it’s truly not something weird tack-wise that she hates,
As a last ditch effort, for attitude adjustment, you can try turning her out in a (different? bigger?) herd and see if they knock her down a peg or two.

[ZuzusPetals]

The stories from this experience must be the greatest.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

As a weenie ammie myself, I agree 1,000% with @CBoylen that the first lesson learned from this for you as a pro is to be more careful about picking OTTBs for resale.

It sounds like you were attracted to this mare because she’s athletic and talented and had “potential,” but if your target market is someone who wants a horse to have fun on, not dumping her riders is her first job and more important than being talented.

She’s 4. Maybe when she’s 7 or 10, after diagnostic tests, experimenting with tack, confident reschooling, she’ll be a solid citizen. But all of the things necessary to make her into one are going to be costly and time-consuming. If you like her for yourself, that’s one thing, but what you can charge for her relative to all those things you need to do isn’t going to recoup your investment, and your pool of buyers is going to be limited, because if you are ethical, you’re going to have to disclose that she does have a buck/rear/wicked spook they’re always going to have to manage.

not an expert on this but what would people thing about doing a “bute trial” on her, as a way to see if that mitigated some of the behaviors (to determine if it’s pain versus behavioral). Obviously wouldn’t eliminate all causes of pain or discomfort, or the sense memories of them, thought.

[strangewings]

Sometimes you have to go all the way back to sacking out stage to find and fix their triggers and just put the time in on the ground for desensitizing. One of those “go slow to go fast” deals.

[Scribbler]

@ZuzusPetals

The stories from this experience must be the greatest.

Things went much better than you’d expect and we had fun. The adult run barns were a nightmare. The man running the fancy barn went to prison while I was in college for long term multiple sexual extortion of young teen girls at his barn. The other dude barn was marginal and would likely be an animal welfare case these days. We were best off just playing ponies on our own.

[chestnutmarebeware]

Rushing through gates sounds like pushy behavior, but the ridden issues sound more like pain responses.

My late chestnut OTTB mare started trying to rush through the pasture gate because she knew her dinner was waiting and the barn worker was used to QHs and my big, less-laid-back horse scared her a little and she wouldn’t take a hard line on the misbehavior.

I came out and had several sessions with the stud chain over her nose, which reminded her that she wasn’t allowed to run over people. I also asked the worker to use the chain because just having it on (not shanking her) improved her behavior.

If your horse came off the track, then just putting the chain over her nose would probably reset her attitude. Ex-racers are used to having this on every time they’re handled. If not, then a serious Come to Jesus meeting (and probably more than one) might be needed, as well as a general remedial ground-manners education.

[Phaedra1]

Is she English or western? What ever one she is you could try switching.
I know someone that had a mare who hated western and she was great in English.

[173north]

@MadTrotter

As a starting pro, you’re going to have to do the math to see if it even makes sense trying to get a profitable result here. You’re talking thousands in diagnostics and then thousands more in treatment.

100% this, if OP is turning pro it’s time to start treating horses as a business and not a hobby. Actually run the numbers to see if this mare is a road worth continuing down.

In my area, typical monthly overhead (board, farrier, insurance, supplements, routine vet costs) is $1k at minimum. It is VERY easy to spend $15k or $20k on an inexpensive sale horse that needs some vet work in less than a year.

[IndysMom]

Many many years ago I had one like this. To make a very long story short-After several years, after being sent to a trainer, and many many many falls (would drop her left shoulder, spin left and bolt), I donated her to a college riding program. She was 8 or 9 at the time. She was big, really pretty and a very talented scopy jumper

Years later, I found out that she was STILL doing it and she was 22 at the time. Sometimes you just can’t fix it…

[Rackonteur]

@Scribbler

In the 1970s and 80s we got our shavings by the ton from the sawmill and kept them under a tarp. We chipped in bought for the whole barn (5 teen girls doing self board in a local backyard with no adult supervision).

Sounds like heaven to me. Heaven and a library full of great girls’ horse stories.

[Tha_Ridge]

Others have already said a lot of what I was going to say, but rule #1 of selling horses: don’t buy problems. Yes, I’ve unknowingly bought horses that may have flaws on their vetting down the road (hello, screwy knee!), but I do not consider myself the horse whisperer and don’t want to buy someone else’s problem to “fix.” I want to truly, honestly, be able to say that Dobbin has a great brain and I’ve never seen him buck/bolt/rear, not “Oh, Dobbin had a rearing problem, but he’s good now!”

[Rumorhasit93]

@Texarkana

It took me years to realize her issue was discomfort. Not pain in the traditional sense; my gosh we had gone over her with a fine tooth comb.

But, she is sensitive to a lot of stuff: fleece, girth shape, mouthpiece shape, etc. And unlike a lot of horses, she never “gets over it.”

For example, I used to have these fleece-lined boots I’d put on her for schooling over fences. I joked I would have a bad ride every time I used those boots. Well newsflash— it WAS the boots. Yet she never rubbed the boots or acted irritated when I’d put them on. But during our ride she would get more and more tense until she was spooking, bolting, spinning, etc.

She hates jointed bits without tongue relief. She never had bridling problems. She was always kind of fussy in the bridle, but not in a consistent manner. Sometimes she would be super sensitive to any contact, other times she would take the bit and lug. I tried a tongue relief bit quite by accident and she was like a new horse in the bridle instantly.

I swear I thought I wrote this when I first read it. My mare is the exact same way. Took me YEARS to find the bit (hello - tongue relief), sheepskin girth (not the professional choice neoprene - it pulls her sensitive hair), certain saddle pads, ear bonnets, etc.

One time, on the last day of a HOT horse show, my horse of 4 years decided she wouldn’t load. The horse who would always walk/jog right on the trailer. Nope. Couldn’t get her on. She decided we now have to move the partition of our two horse straight load trailer. So now we move the partition for loading every single time.

Unfortunately a lot of it is trial and error. I swear if I ever HAD to sell my horse (we keep them till we bury them), I’d have to sell her with a complete booklet.