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Need opinion on PPE

Hunter/Jumper
#1

I’ve been leasing a now 12 year old warmblood for one year. We did not do a PPE prior to leasing (which I regret). We paid $XX,XXX for that one year lease - it’s a lease to buy situation. Now that we are coming up on the time to buy, I did the PPE. The results were pretty alarming. The horse is not sound, period. Below are the key notes in the horse’s history:

September 2022 – RF proximal suspensory injury

March 2023 – hock and stifle injections due to LH lameness

September 2023 – hock and stifle injections

October 2023 – RF suspensory one round of shockwave

July 2024 – Stifle and coffin injections due to LH AND RF lameness

July 2024 – Fetlocks injected

To buy, we owe $XX,XXX (for a total sum pretty close to $100k). Obviously, with these issues, this is not a $100k horse…at least, I don’t think so (but what do I know, I’m an ignorant adult ammy buying a horse for the first time). His experience is mostly in hunters, doing the junior hunters with great results. I go to maybe one show a year and jump around 3’.

At this point, I LOVE this horse. I want to have him forever (do not plan to sell him) and let him eventually retire at our property. However, several people have mentioned that these PPE results are
major red flags.

So…my questions are:

  1. Given the vet history, what are your thoughts?
  2. What is a reasonable cost to pay for a horse as described above?

I’d appreciate any insight as I feel lost and overwhelmed. Thank you in advance.

Edited to add - bottom line from the PPE was horse is not sound and most likely never will be. He flexed positive on everything. Mostly 1.5s (again this is all new to me so apologies if I’m not phrasing things correctly)

Edit 2: thank you all so much for for sharing your input. This has been very helpful.

#2

Those are past treatments. What did the PPE show in terms of current soundness? It looks like the suspensory injury acted up in October 23. Is there any sensitivity there now? Does it ultrasound clean? Does it flex clean? What about stifles, hocks, and fetlocks? What do the xrays and ultrasounds show is wrong with them that is causing the need to inject? Does he flex sound on them now after July 24 injections?

16 Likes
#3

You say the horses not sound due to the PPE. Has he been sound for the year that you have been leasing him?

14 Likes
#4

What is the specific suspensory injury? Is the LH lameness an actual lameness or an NQR? Do the x-rays correlate with the treatments? The injection schedule for the hocks & stifles feels pretty par for the course for a horse of this age that has some miles. The coffin and fetlock injections are perhaps a little less common. What was the imaging/diagnosis that went along with these injections?

If he was doing the junior hunters (or even the 3’ job) with great success in the year before you started leasing him, he’d be priced a lot higher if he vetted perfectly. His price is based on his record, not how much you plan to show him.

As others have said, you have shared a treatment history but not actual findings. I’d assume you knew about the July lameness and treatments.

7 Likes
#5

How long have you been leasing him? Has he been sound during that time? How big do you want to jump and for how long?

It sounds like from this history that the sellers have been open in providing vet records, so that bodes well for their honesty. You can also talk to your vet about what they think, and see if they want to ultrasound the area to see the fiber patterns.

If you’ve leased him for a year and he’s been sound, safe, takes a joke, wins ribbons in your division, etc. then he’s probably worth the purchase price. If not, and you can afford a similar purchase price, then move on.

17 Likes
#6

Like someone else said, I do not consider those PPE results, I consider those a history.

If your lease is coming due now, I have to guess you knew about the last three of those events.

Maintenance injections are not that unusual for a horse busy showing. What level is this horse competing at? How much time does it spend showing?

What did your actual PPE show?

12 Likes
#7

Forgive me if I don’t use the proper verbiage but be flexed positive on everything. Mostly like 1.5s but a 2.5 too I believe

#8

Vet said horse is lame, not sound. Period.

1 Like
#9

I show Iike once a year at 3 foot. PPE is horse is lame and not sound.

#10

Nothing flex’s clean/sound.

1 Like
#11

I’ve been riding him and everything has been “fine” except for that time period around July when he got injected again. But the PPE results are no, he is not sound.

#12

The findings were that the horse is not sound.

#13

If the horse is not sound then send it back to the seller and move on.

No one would pay 100K for a lame horse.

28 Likes
#14

“Not sound” is not a specific clinical finding. What did x-rays say? Or did you stop when the flexions went poorly? Again, a horse of this age and experience, I’m not particularly freaked out at it flexing at 1.5. I like the 2.5 less but I want to know what the vet says regarding a diagnosis. Lame isn’t a diagnosis - ask anyone who has paid thousands for a work up exam.

Is the vet saying this horse is going to require ongoing maintenance aka joint injections and perhaps some corrective shoeing? Or is the vet saying this horse is not suitable for the job you have in mind for it, regardless of the treatments you can provide?

28 Likes
#15

Is would be helpful to know the context in which he is “not sound” - is he not sound baseline jogging on a hard surface, or is he flexing positive? Those are two very different things.

If he’s not sound jogging without flexions, I would pass. If he’s “not sound” because he’s flexing positive that’s a bit of a different story. Especially for a horse with some mileage and in consistent work. I would not consider 2x yearly joint injections to be overly alarming for something that’s been campaigning in the 3’-3’6.

19 Likes
#16

Yet, would you pay 100K to purchase it?

2 Likes
#17

1.5? It’s sound.

22 Likes
#18

Not sound baseline jogging.

2 Likes
#19

Yes maintenance and corrective shoeing. Vet says he thinks he can do the job.

1 Like
#20

I’m assuming since the lease is coming due, a goodly amount of that Lease to Buy is spent, no refund.
@Ahs483 you say “show” means a single annual outing.
Do you train for that prior? How far in advance?
What riding do you do the rest of the year?
Like others said, your info is not a PPE, it’s history & very open of the lessor to share (unless that was in your lease contract).
For a horse that age, if you planned to campaign more, you might consider stepping down from the 3’ divisions to keep him going.
This, if you enjoy him outside the showring.

ETA:
@skydy Oops, meant to reply to OP

2 Likes

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