Need some legal advice please. New barn contractor failure. :(

Building a new barn. Ordered a kit with plans. Very happy with that business. They have been super nice and delivered everything they said they would.

Contractor was hired with separate contract. Contract states they will build according to plans.

I purchased those Grade guard post protectors (see here: http://www.postprotector.com/installation-instructions/gradeguard/) for the poles that go in the ground. Statistics show that posts rot first at 3" above grade to 18" below grade and I want my barn to last. This is a pole barn. The grade guard sleeves are 2’ long and the plans state they are to go over the 6x6 wood post with 6" above the ground and 18" below the ground. The plans show on two pages how to install. The contractors put them on wrong. They put them at the bottom of the post. I contacted the owner of the construction company immediately when I noticed they were wrong. He said no problem they would order more and slide them over the post to meet up with the ones that were put on the bottom of the post. Workers came, I went to work. When I got home they had slid the new sleeves over the posts to the top of the grade of the land. So there is still 10" below the grade unprotected. I took pictures and emailed the owner and followed up with a phone call that stated they were done wrong again and that I had sent pictures to his email. This was on Friday.

Workers come Monday and put purlins up, and sides and part of the roof. I have yet to hear from the owner of the company. When I followed up with a phone call the secretary stated that he is aware of the problem. He has yet to call. :no:

My contract states when the barn is completed (should be Thursday), I am to pay the remaining balance to contractor. I want to show good faith in paying the balance but I am afraid if I pay the whole balance they will never fix this. And if I pay am I accepting the job they did wrong? I don’t want to breech my end of the contract however I feel they are in breech as they did not follow the plans. If I pay in full am I accepted their poor quality of work or do I still have a chance to make the fix the problem which I’m not even sure they can do without taking the whole barn down. :frowning:

Anyone have experience with this and what I should do? I’m not very good at this and to be honest unless I know what to do I will probably pay them when they are done.

Its not hard to withhold the payment until the contract is satisfied. If the contract states that you pay when completed, and they haven’t completed, what is the question?

If you are asking them to abide by the contract then you have to also abide by the contract. Your payment is made when the phase is completed. continue to ask them to complete that part of the work. Pay them when they have done so. this would be expected. Why would you pay before the contract is complete?

If they clean up their toys and leave, saying they are done, but haven’t finished the sleeve, they aren’t really done. You can then call the secretary and explain to her why they won’t be getting paid until the sleeve is fixed.

Do NOT sign off on anything until that sleeve is fixed. You say, I’m sorry, I can’t sign anything until that work is fixed.

If you pay in full before they have finished the work, you have zero chance that they will fix anything after that.

Oh my gosh Kate! I never thought of it that way. Thanks so much. Excellent response. I am hoping it doesn’t go that far but now I at least know how to respond. It has really put a damper on my excitement over the new barn. They originally put my name on the wrong day on the calendar and I demolished my old barn 6 weeks before the new one was to be built. I had to board two of my horses at another facility for a month longer than anticipated. I will be so glad to bring them home. Thanks for your help!

You really need to run that by an attorney, because what you can do or not will depend on the contract you signed, what is stated in there and what laws are applicable where you are.

If you have to pay and don’t, then you are in default for not paying for work rendered, even if there may be details that are not finished.

Those building contracts are tricky, you really need to be sure you are doing right on your end and, if you are not sure, get an attorney to tell you.

Be aware that many times there are problems when building, on both sides, the builder and customer.
That is the way it goes with building and how to resolve those is what attorneys do all the time, you are not the only one.

Agree with Kate. Job is not complete, so payment can not be made in full until it is. If you pay them in full you will never get it fixed. You are already getting the runaround and you owe them money. Just imagine if they had already been paid.

BTW, my husband owns a construction company and he doesn’t pay his subs in full until work is complete. These are people that work for him regularly and depend on him for future work. You, on the other hand, will have no leverage at all once you pay in full.

Do you mind sharing the name of the company that you purchased the kit from since you said you were happy with their business? I’m pricing new construction and am wondering how big/what we can afford.

Thanks!

You and the construction company contracted with each other to have the barn built according to specifications upon which both parties agreed. The construction company told you they would do it correctly (according to the specs).

They have not yet fulfilled their part of the bargain. You have no obligation to pay them until they have.

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I have not stayed at a Holiday Inn Express in over 10 years. I have, however, worked for lawyers and studied business law to some degree.

Consult a lawyer who has passed the bar in your state and is licensed to practice law there. They can tell you what you need to know. Virginia has at least one very good law school (for all I know it may have seven). Maybe they can recommend a lawyer to you.

[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8269782]
Do you mind sharing the name of the company that you purchased the kit from since you said you were happy with their business? I’m pricing new construction and am wondering how big/what we can afford.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

DIY barns. They have an online quote that they honor if you lock in. You are able to customize what you want in the quote. I was able to visit one that was built in my area before purchasing. I just couldn’t beat the price.
http://www.diypolebarns.com/

The erection contracts I am familiar with all have a schedule of payments, generally three and the last one is pending a walk-about with a representative of the building company and owner and agreement that all is finished as the contract stipulates.

Your contract may or not have such clause, or something to that effect.

If it doesn’t, you have to be sure you can suspend payment without you being the one then defaulting.

As our attorney tells clients, you can pay him now to read any legal instruments before you sign or do anything legally questionable, or later, after you sign something that later causes problems, or you do something that causes problems, like withholding payment’s due without sufficient merit, according to local laws and your contract.

You could try a bit longer to resolve that with the contractor, if you can get him to talk to you, before you have to threaten not to finish paying or getting an attorney.

The first question that comes to mind is, are you happy with the contractor’s work other than the screw up with the sleeve guards? If so consider yourself lucky.

Second question, where the sleeve guards specified in the plans? Or is this something you “added” on your own? If the sleeve guards did not come with the building package and were not included in the building plans then according to “Contract states they will build according to plans” that is exactly what they did.

If this is the case IMO and experience your legal recourse falls under a “grey area” of the law. I fully appreciate your frustration for lack of attention to what I consider a simple detail and should have been obvious how they are to be installed. But given the fact IMO, experience and conversation with those in the know more than I the value of sleeve guards is debatable.

The best way to avoid possible deterioration/rotting of a post is to have them set on a concrete footing. A specifically designed bracket set in the concrete which the post is bolted to. But doing it this way adds to the cost of construction. Unless local building code requires this it would be up to the contractor and owner to use or not.

I have built several Pole Barns going back 40 years. The oldest I have looked at years latter all of the pressure treated posts were just fine. I have renovated older pre-pressure treated post constructed Ag buildings that did have issue with the post rotting and the building “settling” in one or more corners. But it was not at the grade. Yes there was some deterioration where the post “met” the grade/ground but the problem was with the bottom of the posts rotting out and dropping several inches. Had to jack up and replace with a new post.

If your posts were set in concrete it will be a big PITA to cut the concrete back/down 18" to get the get the guards in. Filling in with new concrete is not that great an idea. The “old” and the “new” will not bond and maybe an issue in the future.

IMO you are making a bit of a mountain out of mole hill. Again if you are satisfied with everything else the contractor has done. This is a very minor complaint in the grand scheme of things. Hardly worth stressing over let alone getting into a legal battle over. I would like to believe an attorney would tell you the same thing. This is coming from a person that has spent hundreds of thousand on contractors and know the drill soup to nuts having done EVERY aspect of construction. I am not an easy person to work for but I am not unrealistic either. I have learned to pick my battles carefully.

As far as withholding payment and or legal recourse I think you stand on very thin ice. If the post guards were not part of the building package and plan specification as dictated by the architect. More importantly are not required by your local building code you are SOL.

When it comes to “settling up” and the contractor has not fixed the issue to your satisfaction. Present a check short say $1,000 which will be paid when that detail is taken care of. At that point the contractor will fix it or not. And you can pay someone else to do it. But if the contractor doesn’t agree to this in writing you run the risk of them putting a builders lean on the property. Very easy for them to do this in most states.

I wonder how new these sleeves are. I’ve never seen them, and question whether they will work or not. My money would be on not.

Sorry no help on your question. I never get into that sort of thing. I don’t do estimates or deadlines.

A) Contact with your contractor & secretary should be done from now on via email. Even if you have a phone conversation it needs to follow with an email stating “per our telephone conversation” and recap the conversation. Following up with an open ended question that he needs to answer. Solely showing that he read the email. If he/she does not respond, resend ORIGINAL date stamped email asking fir an update. Everyday.

  1. If the dohickies were included in the blueprints/plans and the contract says “per plans”-you should be in the clear. As the building was not to plans & spec.

  2. Industry standard is a 10% retainage withheld until final walk through/punchlist. Be freaking picky at your final walk through, email your punchlist to the contractor he does not get his retainage until you have signed off on the punchlist.

Disclaimer: not anything close to an attorney. I am well versed in construction issues due to my profession

If it were me, I would shoot my attorney an email, with the contract attached asking for a quick read and advise. Its $200-$300 vs much larger potential issues.

Also, did you work with a representative from the manufacturer? What is the product warranty like?
Even if there is a limited warranty from the manufacturer, I would get a product rep involved.
Personally, if I had worked with a product rep to purchase the kit-I would email him & copy the builder. But, I’m a well known witch when it comes to such issues.

No reputable company (building kit) is going to want their name associated with a product failure.

Going to add my .02 regarding the dohickies. I am going to agree with Tom King. I wouldn’t have spent any added $ on those. If they came with the kit fine, but otherwise…not so much.

I am on a different rack… you should contact the Grade Guard people to see if it is an acceptable practice to slide another protector down to meet up with an improperly installed protector… my thoughts are the joint would be unsealed that could cause water to be come trapped between the protector and the post accelerating riot rather than reducing riot

another question: Did they set the posts in concrete and were the improperly installed protectors slipped all the way down to be set in the concrete also?? If so they will retain water and cause post failure

just wondering

(appears to be an interesting product, but we used heavy casing drill stem rather than wooden posts )

We built an L shaped structure, 175’ x 135’ in 1976, for a cattle shed.

The wooden posts were 4" x 5" treated wood, 12’ in front, 10’ behind.

We followed engineering plans to frame it and they indicated the posts were to be wrapped with roofing tar paper of a certain kind, then concreted in.
Worked fine, but as here anything built with wood, the termites still ate the posts up to 1’ above the ground in 20 years.
We finally tore down what was left of it.

Point here, there are specs that demand some kind of wrapping for those posts.

Thanks for your reply. Let me try to answer these questions.

[QUOTE=gumtree;8270083]
The first question that comes to mind is, are you happy with the contractor’s work other than the screw up with the sleeve guards? If so consider yourself lucky. Not really, they have been not very professional at all. Throwing nails at least 50 feet from the barn where my horses will be once fenced. They tore the double bubble insulation on the roof and put it up torn with a hole in it. They backed in to a post and took a hunk out of the side. It will be covered up by a stall but it’s there. There is mud all over the side of the building. I have not said anything about these things although we did ask them twice not to throw nails in the field. Notice I did say twice.

Second question, where the sleeve guards specified in the plans? Or is this something you “added” on your own? If the sleeve guards did not come with the building package and were not included in the building plans then according to “Contract states they will build according to plans” that is exactly what they did. The sleeves came with the kit and were specified in the plan in two place how to install.

If this is the case IMO and experience your legal recourse falls under a “grey area” of the law. I fully appreciate your frustration for lack of attention to what I consider a simple detail and should have been obvious how they are to be installed. But given the fact IMO, experience and conversation with those in the know more than I the value of sleeve guards is debatable. The barn we took down failed at the posts. I wanted to take every precaution we could. As they say, no hoof, no horse. Same way with buildings.

The best way to avoid possible deterioration/rotting of a post is to have them set on a concrete footing. A specifically designed bracket set in the concrete which the post is bolted to. But doing it this way adds to the cost of construction. Unless local building code requires this it would be up to the contractor and owner to use or not. They are set on a concrete footing.

I have built several Pole Barns going back 40 years. The oldest I have looked at years latter all of the pressure treated posts were just fine. I have renovated older pre-pressure treated post constructed Ag buildings that did have issue with the post rotting and the building “settling” in one or more corners. But it was not at the grade. Yes there was some deterioration where the post “met” the grade/ground but the problem was with the bottom of the posts rotting out and dropping several inches. Had to jack up and replace with a new post.

If your posts were set in concrete it will be a big PITA to cut the concrete back/down 18" to get the get the guards in. Filling in with new concrete is not that great an idea. The “old” and the “new” will not bond and maybe an issue in the future. I am scared to death they will do more damage if they try to fix it. I’m not sure how to proceed that’s why I’m asking people with more experience than myself. I feel they should at least pay for the sleeves as they are not doing what they are designed to do.

IMO you are making a bit of a mountain out of mole hill. I have had those thoughts but I am a bit tired of being taken advantage of. Also, I contracted with a particular contractor and he subcontracted the job because he took on more than he could handle. Again if you are satisfied with everything else the contractor has done. This is a very minor complaint in the grand scheme of things. More than anything right now I am frustrated he will not return my calls. Hardly worth stressing over let alone getting into a legal battle over. I would like to believe an attorney would tell you the same thing. This is coming from a person that has spent hundreds of thousand on contractors and know the drill soup to nuts having done EVERY aspect of construction. I am not an easy person to work for but I am not unrealistic either. I have learned to pick my battles carefully. I have saved for so long to build this barn right. I did all my homework. Trying to do everything right. Paid my 10% fee, let it go when they told me they were coming on July 6th to put the barn up when they then told me they accidentally put my name on the wrong date on the calendar. I had already took my old barn down as they did not notify me of this until a week before when I was concerned because they had not told the barn people to deliver materials. I have had to board horses a month more than budgeted. Finishing the tack room will now have to wait. :frowning:

As far as withholding payment and or legal recourse I think you stand on very thin ice. If the post guards were not part of the building package and plan specification as dictated by the architect. More importantly are not required by your local building code you are SOL. I did pay extra to include the post guards. I feel they could at least reimburse me for those since they will not serve their purpose due to their error.

When it comes to “settling up” and the contractor has not fixed the issue to your satisfaction. Present a check short say $1,000 which will be paid when that detail is taken care of. At that point the contractor will fix it or not. I thought of this. Just didn’t know if that was a breech on my part. And you can pay someone else to do it. But if the contractor doesn’t agree to this in writing you run the risk of them putting a builders lean on the property. Very easy for them to do this in most states.[/QUOTE]

Thank you so much for you input. It appears you are experienced in this area.

It’s time to “Call Saul”. That’s the guy on our local TV station that covers issues that consumers have trouble with. You local TV station probably has one. Your contractor really won’t want the bad rep… :smiley:

[QUOTE=N2Equus;8270704]
Thanks for your reply. Let me try to answer these questions.

Thank you so much for you input. It appears you are experienced in this area. [/QUOTE]

Thanks for the acknowledgment.

I have shared your pain. Which is why I do the majority of the “heavy lifting” myself these days. I know everyone needs to make a living and be paid good money for good work. But it seems the majority these days are only interested in making a quick buck.

By and large I have little respect for contractors/builders. I worked in the “trades” for a few years I didn’t have anything to do with horses. Got into doing “sub work” and got screwed a number of times by the contractor who hired me. Gave it up and went back to horses. I figured if I was going to get screwed it wouldn’t be by those (horses) that I enjoyed working with.

You have a legitimate complaint, all of them but in the grand scheme of “building hassles” you “got off” easy. A sorry statement but true. I don’t know anybody that has built a barn let alone a house that says, “Wow that was a great experience I can’t wait to do it again”.

In some ways I think contractors make it such a hassle that folks are just glad to get rid of them no matter what the cost.

That being said and in all fairness to builders/contractors I have been called in by friends who thought they were being taking advantage of. I had to tell them that they were being unrealistic. A lot of things are not nearly as straight forward as people who don’t know the drill think. When I was working in the trades and an owner would want to move a “simple door” to another location and think it was no big deal. Then flip out at the additional cost. They only see it as a “simple door” but they have no idea of what is involved to reframe that “simple” door.

FYI your posts are not “set” on concrete footers. They are “set” in the hole and the concrete is poured around them. If they were “set” on a concrete “footer” and bolted to a bracket you would have no need for the post guards.

If I were the contractor I would reimburse you for the cost of the guards and give you a written guarantee of my work. If the post “failed” in the next 20 years I would repair for free. IMO and experience with present day materials it would be a very good bet. Also there is a good chance you won’t still own the barn in 20 years.

Me, if there aren’t a lot of “real” issues with the rest of the work I would pay them and be glad they are gone.

Never go the legal/court route over “principle” unless you have F-U money. You may win but it can/will be a very expensive “T-Shirt”.