Negligent or not?

[darcilyna]

I learned of this situation in our surrounding area.

A family was brought a 5 year old horse to trial ride for possible exchange of a horse they recently bought. (I don’t know the reason for possible exchange). The seller remained on site but it wasn’t a lesson of anything like that.

There was a storm watch/warning during this time frame. Enough storms expected that public schools cancelled all afternoon outdoor activities. One school a town over even had early dismissal due to impending storms. Even a tornado warning just a few towns over.

So the 8 yr old did a trial ride of potential 5 year old sales horse during a storm warning/watch in their backyard ring. The horse spooked at thunder, girl fell off and was “trampled”. She has 2 partially collapsed lungs, transferred to a better hospital. No surgery needed. Some bleeding behind sternum. Monitored at the hospital for another day.

Wondering what y’all think in this situation. Does any of that sound negligent on the part of the owner/sales side?

I DO NOT HAVE A HORSE BACKGROUND only that my daughter has been riding about 3 years and wants to work in the equine industry long-term. So I try to learn all I can as we go…

[JanM]

I have questions. Was the trial ride on the potential buyer’s property, or boarding barn? (According to explanation, happened on buyer’s property). Who’s awful idea was a trial ride when a thunderstorm is coming? Unless the seller was at the barn where the accident happened, and was supervising this, I can’t see that it will be their fault.

However, if I was involved with this situation I would consult an attorney about how to respond when the inevitable calls and letters from insurance companies, and the attorney communications start. Seller shouldn’t say a word about liability, or talk about anything to do with admitting fault.

Where I live, on tornado threat days, the schools are closed. That’s because in 2007 Enterprise was hit by a mile-wide tornado, it ruined the high school, and 8 students were killed, and a another person also. So, even though the new high school is designed with shelter areas, the local schools still don’t want to end up with students in school, or traveling during a possible tornado. So, schools close in the whole area for safety of the students.

[Jealoushe]

Riding is an sport with inherent risks. Riding a strange horse even more so. The rider/guardian was aware of the weather.

Rider beware IMO

[darcilyna]

I will edit to clarify the main post. This occured at the potential buyers property. The seller remained on site but it wasn’t a lesson or anything like that.

As to whose idea I don’t know but unwise overall with a storm coming.

[hybriseris]

I think even if the seller were present, would it have been smart to call it off with the impending storm? Yes. Do I think everyone was a little silly on this situation? Yes. But not the seller’s negligence, imo.

But to be honest I’m sick and tired of people doing something dangerous, which we know riding can be even in perfect conditions, and turning around and blaming it on the person who “let” them do it. I’m very sorry the girl got hurt but her parents could also have called it off at any time. I do worry about our sport when everyone is so ready to go for their pound of flesh.

[darcilyna]

Thanks for the replies so far!

So far noone thinks that a horse being young/green 5 year old in itself is a bad match for a beginner 8 year old?

A friend of mine insists that is a bad idea in the first place.

[lenapesadie]

I mean green plus green equals black and blue is a saying for a reason.

But it’s hardly negligence to allow a potential buyer to trial a sales horse. Often times a 5 yo horse may have been in work for 3 solid years and quite educated.

Negligence would be not telling the buyers that the horse is 5. But if seller was upfront about the horse then they did their duty.

Many people think it’s a smashing good idea to buy young horses for their young kids. So they can grow up together. I think it’s dumb as heck, but that’s just my opinion

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

I always describe a bad fall I had a number of years ago as being the result of a cascade of bad decisions. It sounds like this accident could be described in the same way.

But actual negligence? No, not unless the seller was standing there saying, “Oh, don’t worry about riding with a severe thunderstorm looming over us. This horse is guaranteed not to spook or misbehave in any way even if lightning is striking the ground all around him.”

[darcilyna]

The problem that skews my perception and the friend I mentioned. Is that we could see this seller saying things like that…or at least alluding to it :(.

Of all the barns around, most if not all
the injuries from riding that I hear about come out of this barn (it’s half lessons half sales)…notorious for putting kids on horses that don’t seem fully vetted to be safe lesson horses.

So that’s some back story. But none of this current situation involves me or my family. I’m just wondering how this all works.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

Sounds like the family are experienced horse owners. They keep horses on their property and already had one horse they were thinking of trading for the 5 year old.

The girl and her parents should have known enough to call off a trial ride in stormy weather.

That said, the horse seller also acted stupidly. It could easily have been the 5 year old horse that got seriously hurt–say spooking and crashing through a fence. So the seller should also have called off the trial.

I don’t see a lawsuit succeeding because of the family’s contributory negligence.

[clanter]

@darcilyna

Does any of that sound negligent on the part of the owner/sales side?

from what I have read here if there is negligence it is the parent(s) of the child

Age of the horse has little to do with what occurred, the parents should have done their homework knowing more about this horse

some kids are fully versed riders at a very young age, others are still learning at 65…but the kid’s parents should have some idea of just what their child can do and not put them into potentially harmful situation

[OverandOnward]

@darcilyna

So the 8 yr old did a trial ride of potential 5 year old sales horse during a storm warning/watch in their backyard ring.

@darcilyna

So far noone thinks that a horse being young/green 5 year old in itself is a bad match for a beginner 8 year old?

A friend of mine insists that is a bad idea in the first place.

Who is it that you think was negligent? You haven’t specified.

Quite likely it was a terrible idea. Not every 5 year old horse would be too much for the situation, but some would be. To ride a 5 year old horse one needs to be able to ride out a spook.

That doesn’t make it negligent on the part of the horse seller or the farm management. Her parents are the responsible parties who should have had the sense to protect their child. I am sorry for how harsh that sounds, but honestly.

You say you don’t have a horse background, but you have identified all the risk factors. There is some obviousness here. But her parents either couldn’t see it or didn’t care?

I don’t understand why people are so anxious to blame others for things they themselves are part of creating. And for what it is worth, this sounds like yet another case of over-mounting a minor … in this case, an 8 year old girl.

I feel very sorry for this little girl’s accident and I do hope that her parents learn some sense, going forward. I have seen parents make unbelievable mistakes with mounts of their child, only for that child to be injured repeatedly. Child in the ER, child missing school, all due to accidents with her own over-hyper horse … and somehow the family thinks that is ‘normal’. It is not normal. It is not necessary. Luckily that child lived to adulthood and she herself has better sense now about her choice of mounts.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Even from the coldest and most self-interested POV, it was dumb on the seller’s part. You want your horse to be shown off in the best possible light to make a sale, not ride the horse in weather that might spook even a saintly old plugger. It would have been easy to say, “there’s a storm, I don’t want to risk my horse getting hit by lightning.”

But the fact the horse is so young doesn’t make it negligent. The family has horses at home, like you said, and probably assumed the kid was a brave little rider. It wouldn’t be my pick for a small child, but it’s certainly not the first family to overestimate a kid’s riding ability to a seller.

There are a lot of circumstances which make trying a horse, especially a horse for a novice child or beginner “more ideal,” like having someone older ride the horse first (to make sure it’s safe to get on in the first place), riding the horse in a familiar environment first with a new rider, but just because a circumstance was “not ideal” and “more risky” doesn’t make it “negligent.”

[LookinForSpace]

@darcilyna

So far noone thinks that a horse being young/green 5 year old in itself is a bad match for a beginner 8 year old?

To me, it would make a difference if you’re talking about a calm, sensible Tennessee Walker or Quarter Horse at five years, or an Arab or Thoroughbred who may be more prone to spook.

Personally, when I was looking for a horse for myself, I wanted nothing under eight years. I wanted a horse that was well-trained and hopefully past any immature, silly behavior. I’d probably recommend that anyone looking for a horse for a child look for one who is at least five, but preferably closer to eight. But that doesn’t mean you can’t find calm and sane in some young horses, even under five years. And IMHO only.

[darcilyna]

Would it make a difference in this scenario to know that the 1st horse they own was fairly recently purchased from the same owner/seller. And that the girl rides and takes lessons at the owner/sellers barn.

My understanding is the first horse is not working out so well that’s the reason for trying another for possible trade. I know nothing of the family (their knowledge or background with horses etc) just the basics listed here.

[hybriseris]

No? Bad trainers and bad sellers abound but again, without knowing the seller, the first horse may just truly not have been a good match. A five year old for an eight year old is also not a good match but it seems pretty well established that this wasn’t handled well by either side. A previous relationship still doesn’t make the seller negligent. Maybe not a great person to be buying/trading with, but not negligent.

[self_made_hunter_jumper]

Not negligent.

I am more than 3x that girl’s age and I would never take a horse out on trail that I didn’t know intimately well in the arena. Especially not one that is 5 years old. Especially not one that doesn’t belong to me.

Whoever is this girl’s trainer or adult in charge - it is their fault.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

@darcilyna

Would it make a difference in this scenario to know that the 1st horse they own was fairly recently purchased from the same owner/seller. And that the girl rides and takes lessons at the owner/sellers barn.

My understanding is the first horse is not working out so well that’s the reason for trying another for possible trade.

Ok, these are important facts that may make a difference. If the parents were fairly ignorant about horses and relied on the seller/instructor for advice, the seller was intimately familiar with the girl’s riding ability, and there was a pattern of the seller foisting inappropriate horses on the family for the seller’s economic self-interest… maybe a lawyer could make a claim for negligence or recklessness.

But if the parents were so unknowledgeable about horses, then why/how are they keeping horses at home?? That implies they have some level of basic knowledge–and you don’t need to be an expert to know that horses will spook at unexpected noises like thunder.

As an aside, I don’t think the spooking by itself necessarily means the horse was unsuitable. I’ve seen teenage schoolmasters spook when there’s thunder, high winds, or rain on the roof.

Be aware, the laws of many states recognize that horse-riding is inherently dangerous and thus riders assume the risk of injury. To bring a personal injury claim under such laws, you would have to go above and beyond basic negligence; you’d have to prove the seller acted with recklessness or maliciousness.

[OverandOnward]

@darcilyna

Would it make a difference in this scenario to know that the 1st horse they own was fairly recently purchased from the same owner/seller. And that the girl rides and takes lessons at the owner/sellers barn.

My understanding is the first horse is not working out so well that’s the reason for trying another for possible trade. I know nothing of the family (their knowledge or background with horses etc) just the basics listed here.

What point are you trying to make? You are really pushing hard for the random strangers of COTH to assign responsibility for ‘negligence’ - but who are you picking for that title?

If you are asking legally - there is no way to assign legal negligence to anyone. As far as I know, every state or almost every state in the U.S. has a law exempting barn owners and those in the horse trade from liability for bad decisions, no matter who made those decisions.

What are you trying to get at by repeatedly re-framing this question? Other than that you really don’t like this seller and want to see him/her taken down a peg.

[mmeqcenter]

@OverandOnward

@darcilyna

Would it make a difference in this scenario to know that the 1st horse they own was fairly recently purchased from the same owner/seller. And that the girl rides and takes lessons at the owner/sellers barn.

My understanding is the first horse is not working out so well that’s the reason for trying another for possible trade. I know nothing of the family (their knowledge or background with horses etc) just the basics listed here.

What point are you trying to make? You are really pushing hard for the random strangers of COTH to assign responsibility for ‘negligence’ - but who are you picking for that title?

If you are asking legally - there is no way to assign legal negligence to anyone.

What are you trying to get at by repeatedly re-framing this question? Other than that you really don’t like this seller and want to see him/her taken down a peg.

Came here to say exactly this