It happens when girthing up so not likely to be an issue under saddle while actually being ridden. The nerve itself is generally too deep to actually put pressure on so it is the horse tensing/bracing that puts the pressure on the nerve so girthing a little bit at a time while walking a few steps in between is recommended. Sometimes switching to a string girth fixes it as it spreads the pressure out a bit so horses aren’t as likely to brace. Fuzzy girths are worth a try as well.
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I respectfully suggest do some more in-depth research. Using the MS for Dummy foals is new. Squeezing foals (or other animals including humans) to stimulate a deeply relaxed state is not.
Did you watch the video on how to apply the rope so that the Squeeze is accomplished safely? Your statement indicates you did not, or did not understand what was being taught.
If you have any interest in being well informed, contact Dr Madigan and find out the facts of how and to what purpose his method can be appropriately used. I’m sure someone in his office can shoot you a list of publications to read. www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/results.cfm?fid=14799
I believe both the Squeeze and the Over-Tight Girth bring on a state more akin to Tonic Immobility as consciousness is not lost.
Syncope = fainting = loss of consciousness.
Well yes, actually, the girthing situation described does cause vaso-vagal syncopy, in the context that’s been discussed.
http://www.provet.co.uk/equinecardiology/5a6b9c1.htm
A horse who collapses due to the this is not experiencing tonic immobility, as he’s not paralyzed. Consciousness IS lost with this event. He faints, just like a person faints.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10286-003-0099-1?LI=true
Tonic immobility (‘feigning death’,‘playing possum’) is not a good model, as it concerns immobility as a survival strategy of an attentive brain, rather than unconsciousness due to circulatory breakdown.
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csaper58, I know the method, I have seen the video and I know about the squeeze induced somnolence. The Madigan squeeze seems to be having good results on dummy foals, and for having discussed it with numerous vets, they all seem to agree that it is an encouraging method. As for the use of the squeeze for “contention”, you are also correct that it had been used before the apparent benefits on the dummy foals were known. It was used as an alternative for sedation for minor intervention. This method does not simply bring a a state of deep relaxation. For reasons not yet fully understood, it brings the foal to a state close to sleep. It also involves squeezing a new born foal to a state of somnolence, it is not to be taken lightly. Studies show that, when done correctly under controled environment, it seems to have no impact on the foal afterwards. But an inherent risk in doing it remains. Now back to the original question, it was a simple case of what seemed to be a completly healthy foal, with a relatively common issue of not wanting to lay down. I understand you think just helping it to lay down is not an option. But I do not think throwing the squeeze as a solution for that is responsible. There is just no justifications, in my mind, to make such manipulations (i.e. squeeze it and cause a state close to anasthesia) on a healthy foal, and probably repeatedly, simply because it doesn’t lay down by itself. It is also irresponsible to think a video is an appropriate tutorial for such a procedure.
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Exactly. I don’t know why that is preferable, or how it accomplishes anything better (and could potentially be worse) than having competent people (such as a vet, one would hope) just lay down what had to be an already tired foal.
The goal was never to make the foal sleep. It was to help him lie down.
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The last thing I would want was an EXHAUSTED newborn foal!!! For lack of common sense in helping him down??? Did no one “think” of helping him lie down??? Worse case scenario was that he’d get back up…
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JB, You seem to be thinking in terms of preferable, and better. In some situations horse owners are simply looking for safe and doable.
Not everyone on this board is young, strong, and of sufficient size to lay a foal down by themselves. Many here are small, have infirmities, and have folks of similar condition with them. Or they are alone.
And sometimes a foal is just too resistant, or a mare just too protective.
For those folks, vets included, the MS is a valuable technique to use when they need to lay a foal down and don’t have/can’t use drugs,
or haven’t anyone more capable (by virtue of experience, or physicality) nearby to assist them.
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Who said anything about deep relaxation? Please quote.
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Where did I say anything like this? Please quote.
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Where was anything remotely resembling what you are describing suggested? Please quote.
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Tell that to all the folks who have learned this (or any other complicated technique) by watching it done correctly in a video.
That’s a whole lot of words you’ve stung together, (and several incorrectly spelled words at that).
Paragraphs, spell check, and edit are your friends.
JB both those articles are discussing fainting caused by a ‘startle’ response. As in the ‘fainting goats’
The article that mentions girth tightening as startling a horse into collapsing is not well researched or scientifically valid. Take a look at the whole web site.
csaper58, see my “point by point” answer below. Again, I did not want to be rude, but people from different level of experience and knowledge come her for advises. When I see advises for those kind of procedures presented almost as a miraculous solution for any time a foal has an issue, I need to point out the dangers of it. Now squeeze your foals as much as you want, and I will let people take whatever advises they want from an unknown nobody on a forum. At least I have given what I think is a safer more reasonable opinion. Everyone can take my word, I am an unknown nobody on a forum:
1. Who said anything about deep relaxation? Please quote.
Yourself at post 22
Using the MS for Dummy foals is new. Squeezing foals (or other animals including humans) to stimulate a deeply relaxed state is not.
2. Where did I say anything like this? Please quote.
Post 5
Forcing a foal to bend it’s legs can cause injuries.
3. Where was anything remotely resembling what you are describing suggested? Please quote.
Post 13
The MS is an appropriate technique to use for the purpose of laying a foal down without drugs (if the folks implementing it know what they are doing).
then again just a couple of minutes before your last post:
For those folks, vets included, the MS is a valuable technique to use when they need to lay a foal down and don’t have/can’t use drugs,
- Tell that to all the folks who have learned this (or any other complicated technique) by watching it done correctly in a video.
I did tell it and will tell it again. Do not try any such kind of manipulation on new born foals based on a video you found on the internet. Eventhough the procedure may be very beneficial, have someone, preferably a vet, who has experience with it show it to you. Foals are fragile, their rib cage is not yet completely formed and a broken rib can puncture a lung or even the heart. Your own link to the very videos we are talking about states that:
Only do this if you are a skilled clinician under the supervision of a veterinarian and after the foal has had a physical examination. During the procedure monitor the foals breathing (the foal goes to sleep and the nose can end up in straw or shavings and obstruct the nostril). These videos are not a training video and you assume all risks if using it in your clinical practice.
That’s a whole lot of words you’ve stung together, (and several incorrectly spelled words at that).
Very helpfull remark. As I have mentionned before, English is not my first language. When I take 2 minutes in my day to comment on the board, I do not always take the time to correct my posts as I should. I am sorry about it but I still believe everyone can understand my points.
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We asked the vet said no as the maiden mare was already upset from the neonatl exam and she didn’t want to risk an incident. She felt the stall was well bedded and the foal would eventually just fall down.
I understand that reasoning but don’t agree with it. No foal should ever be on their feet that long let alone one that was literally just standing for the first time in it’s life. I don’t imagine the vet thought it would take that long for the foal to “just fall down.”
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Not to mention sometimes they can have a rib cracked or broken in the process of being born. Even if someone is intelligent and capable of understanding the 1-2-3 steps to do this, it doesn’t mean they are qualified to evaluate whether it’s safe to do.
Except that by 11pm, a vet was there. A vet who should have been fully capable of laying down a newborn foal all by him/herself, and surely with the assistance of the owner to at least hold the mare.
For those folks, vets included, the MS is a valuable technique to use when they need to lay a foal down and don’t have/can’t use drugs,
or haven’t anyone more capable (by virtue of experience, or physicality) nearby to assist them.
You admonished several for not telling the OP how to lay down a foal (except that someone you specifically called out by their post DID suggest they talk to their vet), yet turn around and point to an internet video on how to do something more complicated and potentially more dangerous. Besides, how many people actually have large diameter, soft rope like that?
Would you point someone to a video on how to wrap legs and send them off? I’d hope not, because there is too much about wrapping legs, much less squeezing ropes around a newborn foal, that cannot be conveyed by a video, no matter how good it is.
The first sentence of the Springer abstract says
“Fainting (syncope) is unconsciousness due to insufficient cerebral circulation in the context of a temporary failure of the systemic circulation.”
And there are many causes of “insufficient cerebral circulation”, not just a startle response
The fainting goats don’t even faint. It’s called myotonia, is hereditary, and is the temporary inability to relax muscles. It’s permanent in the case of something like myotonic muscular dystrophy. The goats are very conscious, as are the MMD patients.
The article that mentions girth tightening as startling a horse into collapsing is not well researched or scientifically valid. Take a look at the whole web site.
I have. Why do you say the event is not scientifically valid? The site has load of scientific information published through them, created by actual vets.
Just because the site looks like a 3rd grader designed it doesn’t mean it’s written by 3rd graders. I mean, their Equine Cardiology ebook was written by Mark Petteson who "is an RCVS Recognised Specialist in Cardiology and leads the HeartVets team. Mark holds the RCVS Diploma in Veterinary Cardiology as well as the RCVS Certificate in Veterinary Radiology. He regularly lectures to both undergraduates and vets and has published widely on the subjects of both small animal and equine cardiology. Mark is based at Vale Referrals in Dursley, Gloucestershire where he leads the cardiology referral service within a busy first opinion and multidisciplinary referral hospital environment. "
Is this more suitable reading?
https://books.google.com/books?id=JW…0girth&f=false
You’ll have to click on the page snippet to see the whole page, and read the Vagal Stimulation section.
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Exactly. Put the foal down. Lift it up, lay it down. He’ll then learn that he can get back up with those long legs he cannot yet control well.
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I would not give advices here on how to help a foal lay down as it would go against what I have been arguing before. So before trying anything, get helped by someone who is used in doing it.
The method I recommand and use generaly never imply force or fighting. I like to call it the “Judo Method”. It involves picking a front foot and shifting softly the balance backward and on the side of the foot that you picked. Always make sure to support the head and neck so the foal doesn’t fall face down. Also make sure to follow the motion so the leg you hold does not twist while you are doing it.
This method will for sure not make the mare more anxious than if you grab her foal and try to tie a rope around it. It is also used by friends of mine that are probably lighter than the foal itself so it doesn’t need a lot of strenght.
If done correctly, the foal should just role over its sholder without any heavy impact. Again, get help from someone familliar with the procedure to do this. It should not involve putting very much force on the foal, nore forcing its leg to bend. After one or two times, the foal is generally happy to lay down and will give you its feet, and just follow you in the motion. Within a couple more repetitions, the foal will generally be able to lay down by itself.
I usually do it 15-30 minutes after the foal stood up, but you will be able to feel when the foal needs to rest.
Csaper58, did I make enough paragraph for my point to be valid?
.
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You have given your advice, I have had my say in return.
For those who read your quotes, and mine, it is very easy to see how see you pick and choose individual words out of context to suit your point of view… And how you choose to ignore complete sentences that give your view point the validation you desire.
In my post #22 read the whole sentence not just your edited portion.
Nowhere in post #13 was the advice to repeatedly apply the MS given. Nor was applying it as you chosen to interpret. nor anywhere else you are imagining exaggerations while you read and then believing your exaggerations are what was meant.
I have no problem with distance learning, Intelligent people can find knowledge in many ways. I trust that folks can do just that, be that viewing videos or attending lectures over the web.
Bold is mine.
Judo Method? That sounds so much unsafer (for both the foal and the person implementing it) than anything I have ever heard reco’d I can only shake my head in dismay.
You have made very nice paragraphs. You still need to work on your spelling.
Do you feel the OP is qualified to make an assessment of the foal to ensure he’s physically ok and won’t be harmed by the MS? I don’t (and that’s not anything against the OP, most people, even very experienced ones, are not qualified to make that determination).
You’re right, I don’t know the status of the vet, but clearly someone was restraining the foal enough to get a wellness exam done, and that’s not an easy task, so someone was physically capable of laying down a foal who had to have been quite tired by that point. It very much bothers me that the vet was so ho-hum about it that he’d rather let the foal crash and burn out of exhaustion instead of offering up something constructive. Nothing like an over-tired foal trying to do things he’s really not very good at yet and fall too fast head-first into a wall…
We will have to agree to disagree.
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