You don’t feel the OP is qualified,
You don’t feel the vet was competent,
But you reading a post on the internet know all, and are qualified to judge all.
But no one else can possibly learn a valuable technique like the MS via the internet.
Wow.
At some point, you gotta let it go. It is clear you are not even trying to understand anything anyone suggest. You just want to be right and have the last word. While doing that, it seems obvious to me, and I want to say it for people who may want to take advice from you, that you have a very approximate idea of what the manipulation you suggest imply, and that you have very rarely, if not ever, manipulated a new born foal. I have tried to remain as polite as possible so far but for whatever reason you insult me, and you keep discrediting what I suggest.
I have used the method I described many many times at home on foals I bred. I learned that technique from both vets and animal techs specialized in breeding and neonatal foal care. I called it the “judo technique” not because it involves wrestling with the foal but, as I wrote, because it involves a controled rolling motion that causes no impact, and because it involves only creating a motion based on the foals change of balance.
You depict the squeeze as simple, gentle and with a low level of risk. I have stated before, as did JB, the various risks involved with squeezing. If you had ever been in a situation where you needed to handle a new born foal beside its nervous mother, it would have been obvious to you that someone you consider not strong enough to help a foal lay down as I suggested would not be strong enough to succesfully and safely proceed with the squeeze, and would neither be strong enough to support the foal when it collapses. It would have also been obvious to you that the squeeze would be at least as stressfull for the mare, while adding the risk of having a rope in the stall tighten around the foal, which may result in a seriously dangerous situation. Finally, the squeeze is not easier, and involves quite a bit of risk, and induces a form of sedation that is absolutely unnecessary for a simple case of a hours old foal who do not lay down. You would not sedate it to lay it down, then you should not squeeze it either.
In summary, I understand your suggestion was at first made with good intentions, but to anyone with experience in post foaling situations, the reasonning behind it (i.e. easier for a smaller weaker person, less stressfull for the mare and less risky for the foal) makes no sense.
7 Likes
Same game again:
Post 22 - I used your whole sentence! Your previous sentence was a suggestion for me to do more research and the rest of the post was insinuating I did not know what I was saying.
Post 13 - You never mentionned to do it repeatedly, but anyone who has experience in that situation knows that you generally do not have to help the foal only once, you basically do it once or twice every hour until it lays down by itself. So although you did not mention it, that what happens.
And as to the way to apply it, I did not “interpret” nor exagerated anything. Squeezing is a method to induce somnolence. To quote a scientific paper on the effect of the squeeze induced somnolence: During application of the restraint device, foals assumed lateral recumbency with relaxed, somnolent behavior. Heart and respiratory rates and rectal temperature uniformly decreased as a result of the procedure. Electroencephalographic recordings (completed for 3 foals only) revealed patterns consistent with slow wave sleep. Plasma ACTH, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, and androstenedione concentrations significantly increased during restraint, compared with prerestraint values.
I do not exagerate, I just state the risks. Your missunderstanding of your own advises and your apparant lack of care about the risks doesn’t make me wrong, it makes you negligent.
2 Likes
To do a MS? No, I don’t. I don’t doubt the OP is intelligent enough to figure out the mechanics of the ropes - that is not rocket science. But no, I don’t feel the OP is qualified to determine the foal does not have any issues that would contraindicate the use of the MS because if they did, they would have enough experience with foals to not be here asking what to do about this particular situation.
You don’t feel the vet was competent,
No, I don’t, at least not fully, or either just sorely under-educated about foals, because I don’t think a competent vet would just say “eh, the stall has enough straw in it, let him crash when he’s too tired to stay up any longer”. That is my opinion, and clearly I’m not the only one who feels that way.
But you reading a post on the internet know all, and are qualified to judge all.
I have given quite lengthy comments on why I feel how I do. Call that judging if you wish, but realize I am not the only one who feels the way I do about all of this - the vet, the suggestion of the MS, all of it.
But no one else can possibly learn a valuable technique like the MS via the internet.
I never said that, now did I. There are plenty of people who could. But they are people who also understand that there is more to doing something like that than just going through the motions of getting the right type of rope properly wrapped around the foal. I would bet that every single vet who had any proper experience with foals, and this would include all good repro vets, and probably most vet techs, would be quite capable of watching one of the good videos on how to do the MS, and get it done right and safely. And the “safely” part is because they know more about evaluating the foal than most of those foals’ owners.
There is no way in hell I would try the MS by myself, without my vet there or at least on the phone with me, based on an internet video (no matter how good it is, UC-D or Madigan himself), unless it was literally a life or death situation for the foal - a dummy foal who was clearly struggling - and clearly that is not the case here.
And I consider myself pretty competent at figuring out things from a mechanical perspective, I’m not new to horses or foals, but I have NO real idea how to determine if there are cracked ribs (unless it was clearly obvious) that would be further compromised by squeezing.
You entirely missed the point about comparing someone doing the MS based on video, to someone wrapping legs based on a video. No matter how good the video on wrapping, it cannot convey the proper tension in reality. Some of the good ones use “pounds of pressure” and “enough tension to be snug but not too tight”, both of which are either foreign to most people (who in general tend to be phenomenally bad at estimating weight) or very subjective (what is snug but not too tight?). It’s not about the fact that there are some horrifically bad wrapping videos out there. It’s about the fact that even the best ones are not a substitute for hands-on education.
2 Likes
You can decree your ‘rightness’ until the cows come home, but people can and do learn both the MS and leg wrapping (among many other helpful techniques) from distance learning opportunities on the web.
-
You need a refresher course in what constitutes a complete quote.
-
You admit you exaggerate then proceed to elaborately exaggerate on how something you have never personally done, is done?
(It would seem you are indeed absorbing the knowledge @JB says it is impossible to learn from the internet.)
You do seem to be prone to elaborating and adding exaggerated detail to enhance any present and future readers’ assessment of your true knowledge of the technique.
You really need to keep a dictionary close by when you try to BS your way thru things.
1 Like
Actually I said
“Do you feel the OP is qualified to make an assessment of the foal to ensure he’s physically ok and won’t be harmed by the MS? I don’t (and that’s not anything against the OP, most people, even very experienced ones, are not qualified to make that determination).”
and later added that if someone WAS that capable, they’ve likely been around more than 1 foal and would not likely be on the internet asking strangers what to do for a situation that isn’t that uncommon.
There was no arrogance to that, especially since I also said I did not feel qualified to properly assess a foal for things like broken ribs and quality of breathing. You can’t be arrogant about a subject if you are also admitting you don’t know how to do that same thing. It’s just a commentary.
Armchair vets are always right in their own minds, and always have armies of supporters.
Armchair vets diagnose and recommend treatments or actions without actually being there, or even knowing what they are talking about, and there isn’t a single person on this thread who even hinted at “oh, the foal is FINE to squeeze, this is a PERFECT situation, go for it”, except for yourself. Everyone else suggested getting help, including help from their vet. The OP asked “what does one do”, and answers included “typically the foal has to be helped down”, my signature says “always consult your vet” and several others recommended the same. Perhaps we have a different definition of what “armchair vet” means?
The fact that you personally would never try something, is not the final word on whether anyone else may feel up to trying it.
Of course not. That wasn’t my point. The point was you recommend a non-trivial method that was never intended for this situation, to someone whose skills you are in the dark about but who clearly is new enough to foals to not have any idea what to do in the first place, so if someone who DOES have some experience with foals and who DOES know that laying them down is one option would not attempt the MS, then… That was my point
You can decree your ‘rightness’ until the cows come home, but people can and do learn both the MS and leg wrapping (among many other helpful techniques) from distance learning opportunities on the web.
And do you know how many utterly badly wrapped legs come out of even some of the best videos? And that’s a cake walk compared to manipulating ropes around a rambunctious foal, to get them in just the right place, and use just the right tension, and position him so that he lays down safely.
A few people have learned to trim feet reasonably well with just videos to look at. Most have not.
1 Like
I am sorry that you are the only competent, proficient person you can imagine existing. The rest of us shall muddle thru the best we can.
1 Like
You litteraly make absolutely no sens whatsoever. Explaining is not exagerating, nor is trying to explain your shortcoming to you.
I do not have to justify myself to you. However I will not passively let you insinuate that I have no experience in what we discuss or that my experience based opinions are purely exagerations based on ignorence. I have slept in barns for many weeks to assist mares foaling. I have been numerous times in pyjamas and rubber boots, both feet in amniotic liquid assisting mares foaling and nelping new born foals. I have had foals not wanting to lay down. I have help foals laying down first hand. I have never applied the Madigan Squeeze myself but I know what it is and how it is supposed do be done for having discussed it with vets in real situations where I was under the impression it may have been appropriate. I have seen the same videos as you did and read the same litterature as you probably did (and contrary to you, apparently, read the whole thing and not just the summaries in blogs). However at each step of my experience on the ground, I have been assisted and advised by the best vets available, and many very experienced breeders. I have enough experience and knowledge to be aware that what I learned on those videos and from my readings are not sufficient to unilateraly decide to apply the method safely without consulting a vet. I also know enough not to apply those methods myself as I am aware of the risks envolved.
I am not learning anyhting from JB nor is she learning anything from me. But reasonnable people with relevant experience will generally agree on what is basic common sens.
One more thing, I have never said you can’t learn anything on the Internet. What I said is that certain things cannot be learned on video or in books. You can understand something, such as the technical aspect of the MS, but never fully learn how to appropriately apply it without having experimenting it first hand with experienced clinicians. A video will never make you feel the appropriate tension. A video will never make you feel the appropriate reactions on the foal. The video doesn’t tell you about the signs to look for that would tell you you are doing it wrong and that something bad is about to happen.
4 Likes
She litteraly spent 7 paragraphs explaining the exact opposit of what you understood!
1 Like
This would be more a effective rant if you did not have three misspelled word in the first paragraph.
I particularly love that you can’t even spell ignorance.:lol:
Thank you for admitting that you have never employed the technique you are schooling everyone else on. :rolleyes:
You did use it? I explained exactly why I did not use it, and it is the whole point of my recommandations before. You do not need to have done it to understand the risks. But you need to understand the risks in order to take proper decisions. By the way, I hope you are having a blast pointing out my typos as it is in any way proof of my general ignorAnce. I admit I do not review my posts as I should for typos. But I am proud I can argue in a language that is not my first language…
3 Likes
And having done it I realizes how safe and effective it is.
Fear what you don’t know, all you want. If you try to spread your fears to others, be prepared for resistance from those in the know.
If you insist on calling another ignorant and misspelling ignorant in the process, well be prepared for what comes back at you.
And having done it I realize how safe and effective it is.
If you’re going to throw around nonsense about other people’s skills with the English language, perhaps you should check your own posts. :lol:
6 Likes
“Hoist with his own petrard” comes to mind. :o
"Out damned s! Out I say!
Yup, hell is murky, but not nearly as murky as some of these threads on COTH.
What is coming back at me is not very impressive. I am not spreading irrational fear, just the basic common sense you should use when intervening with a foal. You do whatever you want with your foals, I think people van make their own idea.
3 Likes
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
If, as you claim, you are in the know, at least be constructive and share your light with us. I have spent many posts explaining my point, and you basicaly just argued that it was all exageration and irrational fear. Now, for the benefit of everyone, please correct me.
1 Like
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I really don’t understand what you all are arguing about but I still think it is ridiculous to allow a newborn to remain upright for an entire day regardless of how you would get him to the ground. Obviously too late for this foal but perhaps food for thought for the next one.
3 Likes
