:lol: :lol: :lol:
Well, if your definition of “competent, proficient person” is one who admits to not knowing how to do things, then that surely explains the entire disconnect we have in this conversation.
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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
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Perhaps you do not actually understand the definition of “ignorance”
“lack of knowledge or information”
I find it very interesting that you keep harping on spelling as some way to validate how knowledgeable someone is. Several older horsemen I know can’t spell worth a darn, and their grammar is pretty awful too, makes 100 Old Dead English teachers roll over in their graves, but have more knowledge about horses, their behavior, their training, have touched and trained more horses, than I and probably 10 other people on this thread will ever have. They’d sure know what to do to help this foal lay down, and it wouldn’t be wrapping ropes around them to squeeze them to sleep.
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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
They’d probably know how to tell when they were beating a dead horse for pride and vanity’s sake too.
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People in glass houses…Being judgemental about spelling and syntax regarding the posts of someone to whom English is a second language is mean spirited. You aren’t exhibiting the perfection you demand of others, which makes you seem very petty.
I do think that the remedy suggested is more complicated and more risky than just laying the foal down.
The mare would likely object to either procedure and just laying the foal down is quicker.
The OP has said that the matter is resolved. OP, I agree that your veterinarian did not give the best advice when they said that you should let the foal collapse on its own (from exhaustion).
Best of luck with your foal and I’m happy that all is well. :yes:
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Please describe your uncomplicated, less risky method anyone of any age or size can use for “just laying the foal down”. Is it the same Judo Flip another poster uses?
How many years of vet school have you completed?
How long were you at the scene observing that mare and that foal?
I don’t understand why you are so defensive about this subject… The foal is apparently fine.
There are a few methods to lay a tired foal down. One was described to you and instead of considering the mechanics of it and objecting to them on their merits (or lack of) with actual reason, you have fixated on the term “judo flip” that was used to describe it.
There is no method of handling mares or foals that “anyone of any age or size can use”. People of “any age or size” are not always able to foal out mares or care for foals. If you care about your horses then you are either physically able to handle them, or you have hired someone who can do it for you. It is often a very physically demanding job.
Why would you believe that the “squeeze” method with a rope is less complicated than laying a tired foal down?
One method is much more simple than the other.
I am not a vet. I have had experience working for several excellent farms that bred horses. Granted, a long time ago! Have you any experience ? You do realize that while treatments and meds change through time, that malpresentations, illnesses, and injuries of/to mares and foals really don’t vary much, other than a few new contagious diseases?
You do understand that most people who work on breeding farms are breeders and employees and not vets? That breeders (the professionals anyway) and their employees have to be very much capable and on the ball ?
Good horsemanship, experience and good vets all contribute to success. I have never known a vet, not one that was hired by a farm that has valuable mares and foals, that would advise letting a foal collapse from exhaustion. Perhaps you have more recent experience working at a breeding farm than I do…
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Why the obfuscation? Describe your method for “laying down a foal”. If you are going to advocate for a course of action and insist it is the right course to follow you aught to be able to give clear directions explaining your chosen course of action.
@Laurierace, and @gumtree described how they would do it… Even @Cumano (as unsafe as that technique sounded) had something to offer.
So did I.
Lets see you give it a go. Tell us how you personally have ‘laid a foal down’ safely.
Just tell me how my method sounds unsafe to you. I am explaining how to have a foal just gently role on its side, with no fall, no impact, no fighting and virtualy no pressure applied. In the end, you just show the foal to lay down as it would without help. If you go on YouTube, I am pretty sure you can find a good video of a foal laying down on its own.
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Didn’t expect this thread to be still going on. I think the OP got run off. One of my first thoughts was how did the OP know the little bugger hadn’t laid down? Something I’ve never paid attention to and or gave thought about watching to make sure. I always just assumed it was a given at some point,
The vet checked the foal at 11 pm, the OP said it was 7 and it hadn’t laid down. The OP’s a trooper if he/she spend the whole night stall watching. I’ve never done that and we have stall cams. After a mare foals and all the post foaling stuff is done I go to or go back to bed. When one is foaling 20-30+ mares per season the “miracle of birth” isn’t quite the same as the first couple in one’s foaling career.
“She (vet) said eventually he would fall down and the stall was big and well bedded with straw so not a problem”
I don’t have a problem with the vet saying this. IMO a practical way of looking at it. The vet preformed a “foal check” part of which is feeling/checking for physical issues, pain from a bruised/cracked rib etc. That would make it painful for the foal to lay down and or nurse. Foals learn how to do the basics at different rates. When it comes to laying down the majority figure this out pretty quickly. Most go down on wobbly knees and than prone or flop over. Some start to bend at the knees, wobble and then flop on to their sides. Just flopping down in a deep bed of straw is going to be a lot more comfortable than flopping down/falling over on to hard ground.
What I have found over the years foals “give it up” pretty quickly when being restrained. My idea of foal restraining, what I was taught is to cradle their entire body with one’s arms. One are under their neck up and around holding the side of their head with your hand. The other arm around their butt. Gently squeezing, pressure, release depending on their reaction. Sometime it requires holding their tail up. This is SOP for drawing blood, giving transfusions, checking eyes, heart, etc.
IME if the process if being drawn out, ie when giving a transfusion just about all if not all foals slowly start to go down. The handler just follows them down if that is what is wanted. This is not what we want when giving a transfusion so the handler has to get in some interesting physical positions to keep the little bugger standing while keep its head/neck in the proper position. It can get exhausting. A bag of plasma seems to take FOREVER to empty.
So, IMO whether the “squeeze” is done with “ropes” or with one’s arms the reaction seems to be the same. I think maybe that’s natures design. I’ve never done the MS never seen it done. Read about it years ago and forgotten. I’ve foaled a fair amount over the years and never had a need to be reminded of it. I think it would only be needed in VERY rare cases. Going to ask my Repro vet if she has ever needed to employ it.
Of all the things that can happen, go wrong with foaling, post foaling. A foal not laying down for a long time would be the least of my worries. Assuming the foal had been competently check out. I would how ever give it a second going over to make sure something wasn’t missed and or something that developed causing pain hours after foaling.
“It is often a very physically demanding job”
That’s for sure Skydy. And a multitude of other things long before they have a saddle put on them. People that breed, raise, break/start do the heavy lifting of all the horses that latter go on to be stars or just another horse are the unsung heroes. The people that ride them, get the ribbons and the accolades never acknowledge those that made the horse what it was when they first put a leg over them. IMO they have the easy job.
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Of all the things that can happen, go wrong with foaling, post foaling. A foal not laying down for a long time would be the least of my worries. Assuming the foal had been competently check out. I would how ever give it a second going over to make sure something wasn’t missed and or something that developed causing pain hours after foaling.
I understand what you say. Making sure the foal can lay down has just become part of our post foaling follow up routine and generally happens quite rapidly. Foals sleep a lot in their first days, and they consume a lot of energy. I have always been advised, and I deeply believe it, that good periods of rest are primordial in those first days. I will generally help the foal down after maybe an hour if it has not laid down by itself and it shows signs of fatigue. They will generally fall asleep almost immediately after they touched the ground. I just added it to my post foaling check list, breathing, standing, suckling, number 1 and number 2, body temperature, colostrum quality test and laying down. It generally happens before some of the others so it does not add much work.
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“Laying” a foal down is not rocket science or a secret procedure!! I gently gather them…one arm around the chest, one around the butt, ease them back toward myself and they will tip over and lie down!! It’s not like bull dogging a calf!! I’ve never had a problem “doing” it!!
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I agree with you. It’s pretty easy as long as the mare doesn’t get after you.
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That’s why I don’t have/breed “evil” mares!!!
I know what you mean Gumtree. It’s the part of the business I have enjoyed the most and in my experience it takes a lot of work by everyone involved. Pretty much everything of value requires hard work to produce.
As you know, horses are not an equal opportunity employer. Breeding and foaling out mares, raising weaners and starting young horses is a job that requires physical strength, endurance, the ability to function and to be competent when sleep deprived.
There are no easy fixes that allow people who are physically weak or are lacking in experience, when it comes to successfully breeding and/or training horses. Especially not if they aspire to be (and do) their best for the horse.
Again,to attempt to breed, raise and train horses without experience, a good education, and a mentor (or very competent and experienced hired help) is absolutely unwise.
It seems that there are some people that believe that the internet or a commercial series of DVDs or something they saw on youtube will substitute for basic, but hard won experience.
Videos may be of great help and education in some instances, but to evaluate their worth a person has to have some foundation.
When anyone assumes the responsibility of breeding mares and raising foals they shouldn’t be winging it on the internet. I am not referring to the OP who seems to have asked a fair question about an unusual circumstance.
That said, this forum (sans the odd moments of weird advice) is a good resource, almost always.
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To answer your question in post #69
You call it the Judo Method
So you reco that the first time you pick a new born foal’s foot up you hang on to it and use it as a handle to dump that foal on it’s ass?
Oh, and be sure you don’t twist it’s leg on it’s way down,
I have not met a new born foal that would not vigorously resist this procedure, likely by pawing the idiot holding it’s foot on the head.
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I dont use it as a handle. I have sais repeatedly not to apply force. You just want To use the foals balance to initiate the motion. I have never met a one day foal who resisted this procedure as you described. By the way, it is a method taught in vet hospitals who regularly handle foals, that makes a lot of idiots outside of Internet…
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No amount of explanation will satisfy the person who wants to believe that is impossible to lay a foal down properly in any other way than using a procedure that has been used to help dummy foals.
Most people here understand what you are are saying. Some people also know that many of the techniques of Judo are (as they are in many other martial arts) a matter of using another’s weight to unbalance them and thus, they fall.
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- Hmmm… @skydy obviously you did not read the portion of post #68 that I wrote. :rolleyes:
I am only pointing out that many posters and future readers may not be large enough, or able bodied enough to accomplish the physical effort needed to do what you and @Cumano suggest. And that the MS is a reliable, and safe way to put a foal on the ground. It is well documented.
I would be very interested to see proof that any reputable vet school teaches the Judo Method.
The link you provide states:
Contraindications: foals that have never stood or have any of the following: a rib fracture, respiratory distress, shock, sepsis, signs of prematurity or congenital anomalies.
I’m sure any reasonably intelligent person can see if a foal isn’t breathing well, has deformities, but as I’ve stated several times, most newbies to this won’t know of any rib fractures (easily possible in this case, even a minor one), and most newbies would not know the difference between premature, dysmature, or dummy foal.
And that’s the point of why the MS is not a good option for simply getting a foal to lay down to show him he can be down there.
It is really NOT something the general layperson should be doing without a well-foal check (which had not been done at the time you suggested it), and really should be done with the presence of the vet to make sure all went well while he was “passed out”.
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