New Article on Cesar Parra Controversy

[FLeventer]

Agreed. I’ve not been in Germany long, just over a year, but ride at a facility with numerous M level riders and a few FEI riders/horses. The most I’ve seen are German reins on for riders when they are learning and cannot hold contact with the horse yet. I have seen none of these other gadgets or tools in the tack rooms here or on horses here.

I have been to a few stables here for lessons and to find a trainer/facility. I’ve been to friends farms, so not like I’m an expert or anything but I’ve not seen abusive riding, lunging or handling. I see a lot of good riding and some that isn’t great but also isn’t abusive.

I would be shocked and appalled if I saw something even closely relating to what I’ve seen in the videos. I think most if not all of my fellow riders and horse owners would be as well. I also think that most wouldn’t tolerate it, they would say something. I obviously can’t speak for all of Germany but just my time here in my small area.

[Knights_Mom]

@sascha

@Knights_Mom

Dutch Harness Horse training has been used for awhile now, including with Totillas. From what I’ve heard.

@alicen

And you have heard this from whom? About Totilas?

@Knights_Mom

I never mentioned Totilas and was at no point discussing him in this post.

@Knights_Mom Huh? You certainly did mention Totilas in this thread.

Ok I guess I did mention him once in passing. But I wasn’t discussing him per se. He was not the topic. He was a passing comment. And yes at that time footage came out of of this kind of training taking place on other horses in the Dutch system as part of that “system”. In fact it prompted an artist to draw this pic which was widely distributed back then. The horses were described as marionettes and it was said at that time they did it with Totilas too.

Of course all the released footage is long gone. Those folks are good at wiping media from the internet. But the art remains.

[Knights_Mom]

@Willesdon

I haven’t read all this thread as it now very long. However.

The USEF issued a second statement 05 February on Dressagedaily.com. Parra is a “FEI dressage athlete and trainer” at his “private training facility in FL” and “USEF immediately coordinated with the FEI” when the FEI imposed a temporary suspension, “which is being enforced by USEF at the national level”.

“USEF is steadfast in its commitment to horse wellbeing and has committed resources to supporting the FEI in bringing this matter to resolution as expediently as possible”.

My question. If the commitment to welfare is so absolute, why didn’t the USEF take immediate steps to temporarily suspend Parra, who is living, training and competing in the USA? Why is it the job of the FEI to deal with the problem with the American NF trotting along behind?

Because with influential horsepeople, their abuse is swept under the carpet until it must absolutely be dealt with.

[anon6923113]

@MsM

I am a bit surprised at the angst over the stretchies. Certainly they are not part of classical dressage training and I understand taking offense over using gadgets. But I have seen them used many times on saddleseat horses and did not find them inherently abusive.

When you have videos of horrific beatings and a guy using what appears to be a running W, I would not focus on the stretchies as an example of abuse.

I was one of the first to voice horror on this thread over the videos, and concern that the gadgets used would result in ligament injuries, etc. But my specific horror was mostly about the running W. Someone responded that gadgets have been used for a longtime with Saddlebreds and DHH, and they really don’t lead to injuries. I think that poster was referring to stretchies though… and we were probably crossing our wires, and she misunderstood that I was mostly referring to the running W.

As far as the stretchies producing more extravagant gaits and knee action, ala Totilas later in his career, the thing I never liked about that was the lack of balsnce in the extravagance in the gaits. A beautiful trot or passage traditionally involved the appearance of a parallelogram as the pair of front and hind legs moved. When the movement of the front legs is distorted, that sort of balance and harmony is lost. That’s always been my gripe with Totilas. His front legs are so extravagant, there is a lack of balance with the hind leg action.

[Mondo]

@alicen

That the earth was flat was once common knowledge.

That’s actually a myth. But what’s your point?

[Mondo]

@anon6923113

As far as the stretchies producing more extravagant gaits and knee action, ala Totilas later in his career, the thing I never liked about that was the lack of balsnce in the extravagance in the gaits.

To the people defending the use of “stretchies,” (I know you are not VHM), I am appalled that anyone would think it is acceptable. Just because the Saddlebred people have done it for years. They do a lot of other very questionable stuff too. I trained out of a predominately Saddlebred training barn for about a year. Imagine me trying to restart OTTBs in the arena with one of the trainers tossing lit firecrackers at the feet of their horses going around, many with little kids on them. And often those horses had their front feet tied together with surgical tubing - what you are calling stretchies. I’ve seen a lot of gadgets over the decades, including a running W being used, and I have never been more horrified than with stretchies. It’s an accident waiting to happen and it can and probably will eventually cause the horse to trip and fall forward, likely rolling onto the rider if they are not thrown clear. It’s a horrible thing to do and it doesn’t improve the gaits - it makes the horse defensive with his front end and as was pointed out earlier, makes the trot very uneven and unbalanced.

[pluvinel]

@DownYonder

And that the national governing bodies such as USEF, FN, etc., enact policies that ban their use in the training of dressage horses, and put teeth into those policies.

Yeah, sure…show me when the judges start marking down these horses with the artificial movements. I am not holding my breath.

[Rumorhasit93]

@Angela_Freda

And the one vid of the cool out and the girl hugs the horse. Give me a break. If you love that horse don’r abuse it like you just did. That’s better than a sugar cube.

You nailed it. As I was reading and catching up, I couldn’t fathom putting my horse away and looking her in the eye after doing anything remotely close to any of that. Or watching it happen to her. And I train pretty intensely for showjumping.

[Rumorhasit93]

@pluvinel

Yeah, sure…show me when the judges start marking down these horses with the artificial movements. I am not holding my breath.

In fact, it seems like the exact opposite. Blondedressage (on Instagram) does an incredible job showing side-by-side dressage tests and their accompanying scores. As someone from h/j land I find it…many things. Educational and appalling are two that come to mind.

[KellyS]

I’m circling back to something brought up near the beginning of this thread, but I feel it’s important.

In the thread about Katie Prudent (over on the H/J forum), a lot of posts excuse her behavior in which she “instructed” young people during a clinic to “run it [the horse] into the wall” or that, if she was riding the horse, she’d “flip it over” (please correct me if I’m remembering incorrectly what was said). The excuses ranged from saying that KP didn’t mean it or she was a “god” and, therefore, that person would do anything to ride with her or that the rest of the clinic session was good and why was KP getting flamed on social media for, like, a few minutes of instruction.

This attitude really bothered me because it’s easy for those in the horse world to say that perhaps KP didn’t mean she’d actually flip a horse over or run it into the wall, but (1) not everyone realizes that she is may not have meant what she and (2) this kind of stuff DOES happen in training by top professionals, as we’ve seen here, across disciplines. No matter the intention, there is never an excuse for talking about horses like this, much less during a clinic being broadcast globally across social media.

From what I can tell, all has gone quiet on the KP front, and I think it will be swept under the rug by USEF, just like these things typically are. I feel it’s important, though, to recognize that referencing this approach to training is no better than taking this approach to training (and one may lead to the other).

[pluvinel]

@Rumorhasit93

In fact, it seems like the exact opposite. Blondedressage (on Instagram) does an incredible job showing side-by-side dressage tests and their accompanying scores. As someone from h/j land I find it…many things

And what would be really interesting would be to see the movement, the score and what the rules say about the movement.

[enjoytheride]

I think that’s a good point. When does a trainer actually MEAN what people think is exaggeration? Are we turning a blind eye on bad behavior because we think it’s exaggeration?

[endlessclimb]

I don’t think it’s a fair comparison. Me telling my student to “put his ass in the ground” when a horse is blowing through a whoa does not translate to me tying a rope to him and tripping him when he does it.

Both stand to be improved, but one is crystal clear - hence the discussing on that thread and the consensus on this one

[LSBC]

100%! Using your aids to train a horse in the interest of them becoming a safer animal (ie. asking more directly when they won’t stop, halting at the wall, using your whip once if appropriate) is not abuse. There is a lot of training that goes into simply make a horse “safe.” If someone’s horse is consistently running away with them and the horse is not responding to their aids, I totally would say “use the wall.”

I think there is a fine line between correct discipline and abuse. I notice it most clearly in the training of young horses. You need the horse to know that you are to be respected - they can’t run you over or get into your space because they are bigger, stronger, and faster - but you want to bring them along in a positive way. I find for a lot of people it is difficult to find that balance. Make no mistake, what Cesar Parra is/was doing is and always will be abuse. But I do believe that sometimes when we parse things out, everything can look negative and abusive in some light. Perhaps that is something we need to acknowledge in the future - like how the USHJA wants to say you can only use the whip once in competition. That makes sense to me.

[Alterration]

@LSBC

I think there is a fine line between correct discipline and abuse. I notice it most clearly in the training of young horses. You need the horse to know that you are to be respected - they can’t run you over or get into your space because they are bigger, stronger, and faster - but you want to bring them along in a positive way. I find for a lot of people it is difficult to find that balance.

This. How much I wish I could like this.

Most of us who work with young or problem horses know that it is very easy to not apply enough pressure for a particular horse or to do the opposite accidentally. It’s an incredibly fine line, and it takes a lot of knowledge of both training and the horse in question in order to assess what is necessary.

Clearly Parra is beyond the pale. This is about as cut and dry as it gets. Other situations are much much grayer.

[LSBC]

The hardest part is when the two get conflated. Do I think Katie meant literally “flip the horse over” or did she mean “ask stronger next time because you need to be able to stop on a straight line”? For people who don’t, or choose not to, see the line between discipline and abuse, it looks like abuse. Horses are giant animals that need direction! We, as a sport, need to be able to offer that without going over the line.

[blue_heron]

It’s so difficult to explain to people outside the horse world the difference between abuse and making a correction for safety’s sake.

One example: at a breed show last summer, a girl was longeing a horse in a square longeing pen. He kept backing up and striking at the girl, who had her whip tucked under her armpit and was just shaking the longe line at him. He eventually got his leg over the line, pulled back, and got away from her with the longe line under his legs. Cue three minutes of panic from the handler and everyone standing ringside (especially with young horses and stallions) that likely could have been avoided had she just used her whip. Thankfully the worst thing that happened was a friend got some serious rope burn when her horse spooked and pulled her rubber reins through her hand.

I spend a lot of time long lining my horses. You can bet they get a quick smack on the bum the first time they try to back up in the long lines. It’s just too dangerous for everyone involved for them or me to get tangled. I only have to correct them once or twice. I can imagine that if I were to post that moment on Facebook, the PETA followers and armchair classique dressage purists would scream abuse.

[blue_heron]

As for the Katie thing, I think her language and tone was inappropriate for the situation and audience. She set up a difficult grid and got angry with riders and horses who were having trouble. There’s no room for anger in training and never any shame in going back to basics. I don’t care who you are.

[LSBC]

Exactly! And I bring this up because I think when we bring other people into the Cesar Parra equation without actually confirming that they have been abusive or if they were just giving direction it invites people outside of the sport to imply that these two completely different instances are the same. While I don’t necessarily think what Katie did was appropriate, it got a pretty similar amount of outcry.

[sascha]

@LSBC

Do I think Katie meant literally “flip the horse over” or did she mean “ask stronger next time because you need to be able to stop on a straight line”?

We all know what flipping a horse means and that it is dangerous to riders, handlers, horses and is potentially fatal to all, and that it is not a euphemism for ask stronger.

Could a young person, infatuated with a high-level trainer not know about flipping and maybe take it to be a euphemism? Sure, but we owe it to the unknowing to educate them. Flipping was (and may still be - Parra, Clinton, joe cowboy, etc.) a known and semi-legitimate ‘training method’ for particularly difficult horses - runaways and rearers.

Could someone who has been around as long as Prudent not know? Only if they lived under a rock and never spoke to another person in the industry.