New Article on Cesar Parra Controversy

[Alterration]

@sascha

It is not that hard and does not require tying up a leg.

Taking the word “flip” for “do some dental work if necessary to get that horse stopped NOW” is quite the stretch.

And yes, I am quite familiar with using a wall to stop a horse. It can be done right (in emergency and then the trainer goes back and fixes the giant gaping hole in training). I’m fixing one right now that instead of getting educated got ridden into the wall so many times a fear of the wall developed.

Ok. Well clearly you are more well-educated than I am at getting horses to flip over. Silly me, despite riding hundreds through my lifetime, I’ve never been able to get one to flip. And I’ve done some really stupid things with horses - lots of one rein stops, lots of bolting horses, lots of rearers - people always stuck me on the under-educated ones because I was sticky - so I guess I’ve just lucked out.

No one was talking about riding the horse into the wall. It’s called STOPPING at the wall after a line of jumps. Halting straight. It’s not about using the wall to stop.

Again - these are common exercises in jumper-land.

[Alterration]

@Mondo

Saddlebreds can be 5 gaited. That qualifies as a “gaited” breed. They even have separate divisions for 3-gaited and 5-gaited saddlers. And they may not set tails, but they certainly do you many inhumane tactics.

Gaited breeds are those considered naturally gaited. The 5-gaited saddlebred is taught to rack. It’s a manmade gait. They do not even typically have the gaited gene. I’ve just recently spent a lot of time down this particular rabbit hole doing research.

Yes, there are things that I don’t love in saddlebred-land. Not arguing that in the least.

But a lot of people conflate them with Walkers and they are a different beast. You’d be pretty disappointed if you picked up a saddlebred to trail ride with a smooth gait. Very few do it naturally. Very very few.

[sascha]

@Alterration

clearly you are more well-educated than I am at getting horses to flip over

Unfortunately, yes, in this case I have been around a long time and seen some damned sketchy shit.

@Alterration

It’s called STOPPING at the wall after a line of jumps. Halting straight.

In theory.

@Alterration

using the wall to stop.

is how it goes often. I’m glad that you’ve only been around people that use that exercise correctly. Like I said, I’m fixing one that flunked out of jump school and got run into walls far too many times. By a supposedly decent professional. Not by Jane Yahoo.

[LSBC]

I see abuse as an action. Yes, she said it, but did she do it? It is 100% not even close to the same as what Cesar Parra is doing. To put them in the same group is not right. Is what she said wrong? Of course! But was there action behind it? No, not even in the clinic.

You (g) will tie quite a knot when you try to pull on the individual strands of what people have said once. It’s not the same. And it takes the attention away from the things that we really need to focus on, like Parra’s actual abuse. Because, realistically, horses aren’t even meant for riding or showing. Their natural lifestyles don’t match up with being in a stall for 12 hours and turned out for 12 and getting ridden for 20 minutes to an hour a day. So when we start attacking people for saying something inappropriate with no action behind it, we are doing no favors for this sport.

[MsM]

I think there is a difference between stuff that is abuse in the sense of possible legal or at least Organization action, and stuff that is shortcuts, gadgets and not what dressage should be.

If CP is to be punished, I think it weakens the case to put things like the sretchies front and center. Why? There is so much documented activity that most any thinking person would agree is abusive.

[oldernewbie]

Competitors have led the way because at some point us DIY/AOs realize that we just can’t compete with the LaCroixs, Stachowskis, Vicky Humphreys of the world. Why waste your time and money going to a show when you haven’t really got a chance? Back in the day (yes I am an old fart) an amateur trained english pleasure horse had a chance. That is a much rarer beast these days. So began the search for something the amateur owner/trainer could do and feel competitive and the rise of the classes I mentioned.

I think the trend towards diminishing interest in rated dressage is already underway. Maybe not so obvious just yet but my observation at local rated shows is that the classes seem pretty small.

[sascha]

Of course. Parra is far worse so Prudent should get a pass.

Because one thing is worse than another doesn’t mean the less worse thing is ok. Because we didn’t witness something that someone basically admitted to doesn’t mean it wouldn’t or hasn’t happened. People do not generally speak so casually about such garbage training methods if they don’t have some pretty intimate knowledge of them.

Parra and his ilk are the ones who are damaging this sport. Prudent is not helping. We are at their mercy whether we like it or not. NOT speaking about it will not cause change. Allowing the ‘little’ stuff to stay under the rug doesn’t help. We need solid, enforceable guidelines, solid, enforceable penalties, and a very, very open stream of communication. WE need to do our best to change the culture of our sport and all horse sports.

[Alterration]

@sascha

I’m glad that you’ve only been around people that use that exercise correctly. Like I said, I’m fixing one that flunked out of jump school and got run into walls far too many times. By a supposedly decent professional. Not by Jane Yahoo.

Yes - I was trained by an Olympic Show Jumping coach (British 3-day team) who used the exercise, and have done so with several different hunter and jumper trainers since.

I was in a very similar boat as that rider, at about the same age at a clinic with my coach. I think that’s why I feel so strongly about this particular case - I’ve been that rider and I know for a fact I was allowing that horse to squirt left or right. I felt like I “couldn’t” stop him. In reality, I was giving him the exact same ride that rider was, and was being passive when I needed to be an active, stronger, rider.

What I needed from my coach (and got) was yelled at that I was being a weenie (those weren’t the words used but it’s been 30 years since that particular lesson so I don’t recall them exactly) and I needed to stop that horse and mean it. If any horse would have flipped it would have been him, but he didn’t and I managed to halt him straight on the line. I needed to be firmer, and I was being a weenie, tbh.

We all have our own experiences that influence us as to how we view these things. Makes the world a very rich place, but communication very difficult.

I think that’s why I’m less concerned about the words used in this case, and far far more concerned about the actual abuse from Parra. Words can mean many things, but Parra is very clear with his actions.

[sascha]

@Alterration

If any horse would have flipped it would have been him

??? This makes no sense. Accidents happen to rookie riders and unfortunately occasionally a horse going over backwards on one is a thing that can be due to a whole bunch of miscommunications due to lack of education or undeveloped timing.

Flipping a horse on purpose is a totally different thing. Prudent was not talking about accidentally having a horse go over backwards, she was talking about a very intentional technique that she would do to that horse.

[Alterration]

@oldernewbie

Competitors have led the way because at some point us DIY/AOs realize that we just can’t compete with the LaCroixs, Stachowskis, Vicky Humphreys of the world. Why waste your time and money going to a show when you haven’t really got a chance? Back in the day (yes I am an old fart) an amateur trained english pleasure horse had a chance. That is a much rarer beast these days. So began the search for something the amateur owner/trainer could do and feel competitive and the rise of the classes I mentioned.

I think the trend towards diminishing interest in rated dressage is already underway. Maybe not so obvious just yet but my observation at local rated shows is that the classes seem pretty small.

Of course now, with 30 horses in a HCP or Shatner class you’re not likely to pin either. But you can keep that horse at home and it’s shoes are definitely cheaper - plus there’s a longevity issue there too. A performance horse only has enough verve for a few years.

So - the trend is starting, that’s a good thing.

[LSBC]

Those horses cost so much and the trainer honestly can’t afford to get injured, I would highly doubt any jumper rider is flipping their horse on purpose. It is uncontrolled and could cause catastrophic damage. What Cesar did was calculated abuse.

[Alterration]

@sascha

??? This makes no sense. Accidents happen to rookie riders and unfortunately occasionally a horse going over backwards on one is a thing that can be due to a whole bunch of miscommunications due to lack of education or undeveloped timing.

Flipping a horse on purpose is a totally different thing. Prudent was not talking about accidentally having a horse go over backwards, she was talking about a very intentional technique that she would do to that horse.

sigh Communication is hard.

The horse I was riding got light in front frequently. He jigged, did not walk, reared often. If pulling on him would have flipped him, it would have happened. He’d be the type of horse to go up and get pulled over.

It was an offhand remark about how light that horse got in front frequently and what a weenie I was being. That’s all.

Yes, I agree flipping a horse on purpose is a totally different thing.

[sascha]

@LSBC

I would highly doubt any jumper rider is flipping their horse on purpose.

You may be very surprised then. Is it happening these days? I sure hope not, but then I kinda hoped that the shit that Parra is doing was long dead too. Was it happening 25-30+ years ago? Yup.

[sascha]

@Alterration

If pulling on him would have flipped him, it would have happened.

You are the only one in this conversation who has said “pulling on” a horse is the way to flip it. It’s more complicated than that, thank goodness. If it weren’t there’d be a lot more horses accidentally flipped by their uneducated or badly educated riders.

[Alterration]

@sascha

You are the only one in this conversation who has said “pulling on” a horse is the way to flip it. It’s more complicated than that, thank goodness. If it weren’t there’d be a lot more horses accidentally flipped by their uneducated or badly educated riders.

Oy. Wow, communication is very hard indeed.

No - it’s not a way of flipping a horse which was my point and I was argued with that flipping a horse is very easy. It’s clearly not.

I made a flippant (no pun intended) comment about how this particular horse would have been easy to flip just pulling on. He, of all the horses I’ve ever ridden, would have been. Very easy to get in his face and get him to rear. Pulling him over once rearing would not have been difficult. He was not an amateur horse.

I do not believe KMP was speaking of a complicated method of flipping the horse to teach him something behavioral. I believe she was talking about pulling very hard to sit him on his a&& which is still not very kind, but does not warrant the outcry nor does it get anywhere near to Parra’s crimes.

With that - I hope we’ve communicated. We don’t have to agree that is what she meant, but I certainly don’t want my meaning misconstrued. Maybe we have not, but I’m certainly doing my darnedest!

[Aussie_2020]

I’m not in the ASB world yet I’ve personally seen three Saddlebreds that had the under side of the tail cut with what looked like a serrated knife. Definitely did not look like a vet job.

[Alterration]

@Aussie_2020

I’m not in the ASB world yet I’ve personally seen three Saddlebreds that had the under side of the tail cut with what looked like a serrated knife. Definitely did not look like a vet job.

Scarring or from rubbing? It might have been irritation from a tailset (another practice I do not condone).

Typically they are not cut underneath. There are two nicks on either side of the tail where you wouldn’t see them. The ligaments are not underneath the tail, so there would be no reason to use any sort of knife under there.

It can leave the tail terribly crooked and disfigured if they don’t do it well. A tail that sticks straight up and then curliecues off to the side is not uncommon. Very ugly.

Again - not condoning cutting tails. Just explaining it.

[Aussie_2020]

I asked my vet about what I saw and she said it was likely from a trainer cutting. The one horse was at my barn and the owner let us look under the tail. Nasty looking.

[Cowgirl]

And who cares how they do it, if it impacts the function of the tail (to swat flies and other irritating insects), it is cruel.

Years ago, animal cruelty organizations in Europe affected change to ban the clipping of muzzles and ears because such clipping removed their function: the whiskers as feelers and the hair in the ears to keep bugs/dirt out and keep the ears warm. Many people still clip both here in the US in dressage.

[Alterration]

@Cowgirl

And who cares how they do it, if it impacts the function of the tail (to swat flies and other irritating insects), it is cruel.

Years ago, animal cruelty organizations in Europe affected change to ban the clipping of muzzles and ears because such clipping removed their function: the whiskers as feelers and the hair in the ears to keep bugs/dirt out and keep the ears warm. Many people still clip both here in the US in dressage.

Not arguing that it’s kind.

Who cares? Well - if you want to influence anyone in saddleseat land, saying “broken tails” will not help your case. Commenting that on a public post is going to get you dismissed as not knowing what you’re talking about.

If you want to change something badly enough to assert it on a public forum, which is totally fine, it’s wise to know more about it.