New Article on Cesar Parra Controversy

[Cowgirl]

Right now the biggest problem is that no one agrees what abuse is, sure they agree what aggriegious abuse is, but not abuse in general. So yes, PeTa could make a billion complaints of abuse because they believe that riding a horse is abuse. If the system eliminates that, then they can’t make those reports.

Once they arrive at definitions, then required education needs to be developed for members.

Mandatory reporters need to be identified and specially trained.

Then a reporting mechanism and an investigative panel need to be created. I believe that the investigators need to be independent of the organizations. There is three million dollars left over in the drug testing program–what about funding the state vet’s office in each state to investigate the claims. The state vet certainly has the authority to come onto private property. The AAEP has given authority to classify certain injuries as resulting from abuse.

Then a penalty system needs to be created.

Finally, a monitoring system should be created, a system that needs followup if suspended members are let back in.

There also needs to be clear leadership and hopefully several levels of leadership for this program.

I am following the US Office of the Inspector General’s 7 element compliance program structure. It’s what we need here.

[Ghazzu]

That’s $60 K per state.
It won’t even fully fund hiring one person.

[DutchSonofBell]

Basic problem is to enter private property, you need a search warrant. To get a search warrant, one needs a crime and a prosecutor’s office that wishes to pursue the crime. Its best in CPs case, to push the human element. The most the organizations can do is deny him membership. He can still train unfortunately but question is, will anyone train with him? Reality is there is little the organizations can do beyond black balling.

[Bogey2]

Visit some of the threads on starving horses…it takes YEARS for this country to let rescues take them out of harms way. We don’t need another organization to deal with this we need the current organizations to do their jobs. Look at the Strasser situation, I have no idea what the charges are but they did not drag feet to address it.

[skydy]

This article as a tiny bit more information;

Evi and Tanya Strasser Provisionally Suspended due to Allegations of Misconduct

[2tempe]

I guess I should retract my comment that Canada seemed to “get right on it”. On related note it seems that FEI should also do a suspension until this is resolved. If they can’t ride for Canada then they shouldn’t be riding in CDIs in Wellington…

[Alterration]

USEF does have forms to report abuse, and guidelines for private farms.

https://www.usef.org/compete/resources-forms/rules-regulations/reporting-equine-abuse

I’m not sure what they DO with these reports, but they do exist. I wasn’t aware they had the forms, so maybe this is helpful for someone else.

Edited to add: I am also not suggesting they are sufficient - just that they exist.

[skydy]

They do exist and it seems to me that if anyone is ignored by a Steward or a TD, the forms could be a good way of getting heard.

I don’t know what USEF’s policy is with the forms but I hope that if the same person is being called out repeatedly, they would have take action.

[QovDressage]

They are not allowed to show anywhere until this is resolved.

[4horses]

Why would a farrier want to work on drugged horses? That would definitely seem shady to me. Equine dentists will notice injuries to the mouth and tongue. I knew a horse that was forward and bull headed under saddle. He had severe damage to his tongue from a strong bit. I rode him in a sidepull with a snaffle underneath and double reins. He improved tremendously but I never did trust him not to drag me off somewhere if he wanted his way. I really worked on getting him lighter in the bridle. Of course one bad rider can undo all that good training in the future.

It seems like many people must have known, and looked the other way.

[Cowgirl]

Hopefully, they won’t need a full time person.

[skydy]

Are you familiar with this episode about Strasser?

http://www.crdsc-sdrcc.ca/resource_centre/pdf/Summary/453_SDRCC%2008-0085-summary.pdf

[Ghazzu]

@Cowgirl

Hopefully, they won’t need a full time person.

The USEF has absolutely no legal standing to send investigators in to a private facility to document abusive training methods.
Even if they had the funds to sponsor enforcement in every state, they still have no statutory authority.
The state veterinarian’s job description does not involve any direct involvement with enforcing the wishes of private voluntary membership organizations.

It would be far simpler if folks just continued doing what is being done right now–the abusive training methods are being publicly aired and those responsible are being called out for it.

[skydy]

I agree that more bureaucracy at USEF won’t solve the problem. They need to start backing the stewards and TDs and enforcing the current rules at competitions.

Abuse at private barns will have to be exposed by witnesses and taken seriously by USEF.
If they feel they need a rule change, fine. I hope they can use their “Code of Conduct” to crack down on abusers in the meantime

[2tempe]

No, but wow, this is a completely weird bunch of arguments on her side.

[Cowgirl]

I saw it. I’m more concerned with arriving at a mutual definition of abuse, educating people, supporting TDs and show officials in a mandatory reporter role, making abuse easier to report, ensuring some sort of panel investigation of abuse reports, maybe even making the results public.

I don’t believe you can police what goes on in private. People intent on continuing abuse ways will: (1) force NDAs; (2) ban cell phones (i.e. a single barn land line for emergencies); (3) close all the doors when they want no one to see; (4) have a different definition of what is abuse and what is “correction”… We need to help educate people what it is so that they can avoid these situations. The best social correction for a bully is to shun them.

Veterinarians ARE mandatory reporters, but their economic livelihood is wrapped up in it so I doubt they report the type of abuse we are discussing unless they see it actually happen with their own eyes and can verify that the injuries they are seeing are the result of abuse and not some other explanation.

[Ghazzu]

@Cowgirl

Veterinarians ARE mandatory reporters

Not everywhere.

[Sticky_Situation]

Defining just what constitutes abuse isn’t exactly trivial, either.

Is it abuse to shank a 3-year-old stud colt a time or two with a chain after he tries to bite or strike at his handler? Is it abuse to do the same thing to a horse that is standing quietly and minding his own business, because you’re mad at him after a bad ride? Is it abuse if a rider unintentionally causes spur rubs because the horse is clipped and the rider’s leg isn’t as quiet as it should be? Is it abuse to use a snug-but-not-overly-tight flash noseband? Is it abuse to use a whip multiple times to get a lazy horse in front of the leg, if the use of the whip stops when he eventually responds? Is it abuse to ride in draw reins? Is it abuse to ride a horse behind the vertical at all, or only if the horse is forcefully held there? Is it abuse for a beginner or nervous rider to ride a somewhat creaky and arthritic old horse that isn’t 100% sound through a training level test or over a crossrail? Is it abuse for an experienced rider to be competing at 3rd level or jumping 1m fences on a horse that isn’t 100% sound?

I think that an overwhelming majority of people would agree that what is shown in the CP videos is abuse, but in less egregious situations it is not always so black and white, and reasonable people can differ on just where the line is.

[oldernewbie]

I don’t know if you remember Shirley Nowak, a venerable Arab show steward. She mentioned that she was threatened more than once with bodily harm if she followed up with complaints about certain trainers. You can probably imagine who those trainers were. In any case, having an independent 3rd party follow up on complaints might take stewards/TDs out of the direct line of fire of irate and dangerous trainers.

[CHT]

Apparently this is now a thing at at least two big show barns locally. These horses get hardly any turn out, never have direct contact with any other horses, and nobody bothers working on their manners. Drugs make it safer for the farrier. Staff just have to try to survive. The horses are also blanketed unless ridden, regardless of the weather.

Unfortunately there is nothing overtly abusive about this from a legal point of view.