It was that the rail birds were fewer and farther between. That gadgets didn’t make the horse. That lungeing a horse to death before you get in the ring is not a “thing.” Stuff like that. When I was riding over fences, I didn’t get the fact that every time you get on your horse, you’re training him, for good or ill. Now, that may well have been because I was riding with less than stellar trainers back then, and it may have had something to do with my own screwy point of view. But I definitely recall crying after my first few lessons because I realized I wasn’t the advanced rider I thought I was (and had the show ring success to prove). When I switched to dressage, I really learned to ride.
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No, it’s not just you. I have experienced epiphanies through the years as I have learned or evaluated different disciplines. It’s also not all hunter barns and programs. Likewise, not all dressage programs are ideal, either or the hunter world wouldn’t have so many fried former dressage horses. And of course the dressage world wouldn’t have so many retired H/J horses that fall intro dressage as they can no longer jump. It’s a vicious cycle we are in.
Nearly every hunter barn I have ridden in has trained dressage basics, however, I made that a priority when I chose my particular trainers. But not everyone knows to do that. When H/J riders select a program with a dressage foundation, they learn that every ride is a training ride, that a horse needs adequate time to warm up, how to ride inside leg to outside rein, how to ride correctly balanced in a turn, etc… I used to find it interesting that we only see excessive lunging really at H/J and breed shows and not at dressage shows, but then I came to realize that in dressage the focus truly is on training, and as a rider you learn HOW to ride a horse with energy, how to use your aids to influence the horse, how top optimize your horse’s performance and responsiveness. As dressage programs and riders turn horses out for longer periods of time, you learn that well trained horses don’t really need all that longing, nor do they need calming treatments and medications. What they generally really need is a skilled rider.
On my 5th dressage lesson ever, I did my first ever tempi changes. It was because I had such a solid foundation from my years of riding in other disciplines (hunters, stock breeds, games, saddle seat, sidesaddle). So I didn’t have quite the same awakening that you had but I understand how you would have had such an awakening if your H/J programs never covered any dressage basics.
At a local show over the summer, a judge called for haunches in during an equitation class. NONE of the riders could execute it properly (which was honestly bizarre as several were in programs where they have been taught this - I have even been in some of the lessons with them!!!). Some of these kids had even competed indoors in equitation finals. Most of them did a shoulder in. Some didn’t really do anything. The judge did something I have never seen before and called all the riders in the class to assemble around the judge’s stand. The judge addressed the riders to explain, in detail, what it meant. I have never seen so many frustrated trainers in my life!! Heck, I was frustrated, too. It was a bit strange and I’m not sure if everyone just froze or what the heck happened, but several of the riders came out and mentioned that after the judge explained it they realized they had confused shoulders with haunches and that they had, indeed, been taught this on numerous occasions but were just completely thrown off guard when it was called in a rail class and couldn’t think. But to onlookers, I’m sure it looked like all these kids had no dressage foundation at all.
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Not surprising at all. Somewhere there exists a video of Frank Madden teaching an equitation lesson in which he says (paraphrased): “Now, staying on the 20m circle, bring both of your hands towards the inside of the circle. Slide your inside leg back to push the haunches to the outside of the circle. You’re now doing what’s called shoulder in.”
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And soundness.
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I have learned that regardless of discipline, it’s best to choose the program where the horses have career longevity and proven soundness while in the program.
I do think in dressage that there is too much “tap tap tap his hind end - wake him up!” that focuses on some bizarre idea that the horse is lazy or that the hind end is asleep rather than the fact that something might actually be wrong. In my case, my horse had EPM and the message wasn’t getting to his hind end. But the training methodology was to “tap tap tap” to “wake him up!” I think we, as riders, regardless of discipline need to work to better understand why the horse responds as it does. It’s been an enlightening journey for me for sure! Now my horse is so light and restored that I don’t even ride in spurs. Had I just kept “tap tap tapping” instead of doing what I did, which was to ask “why?” we would still be in the same place.
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And people learn this in the HJ world. I have been teaching these principles for over 30 years and I think my students would argue they have been well taught how to properly work with a horse on the flat as well as over fences.
Conversely, I have seen many “yank and spank” dressage trainers that I would never recommend. They think their way is correct and they are training the horse “through classical methods”.
It all comes down to education and who cares enough about the horse to study and avail themselves of the knowledge and research that is out there. Unfortunately most people just want to ride and win, not learn and educate.
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I totally agree that programs that have been shown to have sound, happy horses with long careers are the way to go.
And if a previously forward-thinking horse is suddenly stuck behind the leg, there is probably something wrong that needs to be addressed.
But it’s not a bizarre idea that some horses are quieter and less naturally forward and may need some encouragement in that department, and sometimes it’s truly just their temperament and not a sign of an underlying soundness problem. Not that you should feel the need to be constantly nagging with the whip, but a couple taps with the whip on occasion to encourage the horse to turn up the energy level a bit is not abuse or even a sign of bad training.
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I agree that SOME programs do teach this in the hunter world, and it’s great that you have made this a priority in your program.
However, there is a post prior to mine from a person who did not receive a dressage foundation in their program, and discovered that there was much to learn when making the change from hunters to dressage. A person new to the sport doesn’t know to ask if a program has a dressage foundation, so they don’t know what they are missing. And it is true that while your program covers this, as have the programs I have selected for my long-term instruction, there are many, many programs that do not.
I evaluated so many programs before bringing my horse home from FL. He was there for 3.5 years so I had a lot of time to audit from the sidelines and to participate in trial lessons with various trainers. Very few had what I would consider to be any type of correct dressage foundation, if any at all. It took me a LONG time to find the right combination of skills for what I needed: soundness, dressage foundation, kindness, correctness, no drugs, no need to lunge my horse, lack of groom turnover, farriers that understand correct angles, and will consult with a vet with something is questionable, etc… You get the point. It SHOULD NOT be this hard.
Now, imagine if I didn’t have a lifetime of equestrian skills to select the right program. I would likely land in one of these other programs, due to the price, or location, or availability of lesson horses, or schedule (I had to compromise on schedule to do what was best for my horse, but many cannot). How would a new person know to check all of these things?
I agree that there are also dressage trainers who drill the horses until their minds can no longer tolerate the work. There is too much use of the whip to activate instead of going to the basics to see why the horse isn’t able to activate. And Rollkur tells me there is much evasion. No sport is perfect - not hunters, jumpers, dressage, western pleasure, cutting, reining, racing, and everything in between. We can’t fix everyone, but we can choose what is best for our horse. We can educate ourselves and others. And we can learn from new datapoints about what is best for our horses and continuously improve and evolve in our care. We all need to work together to maintain relevance for our sport in the years to come.
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If a hunter/jumper rider is fortunate enough to find a Forward Seat riding instructor or a riding instructor trained in the system of the US Cavalry toward the end these students WILL learn how to ride their horses even if they never end up finding a proper dressage teacher.
Kay Russell who had the North Fork School of Equitation TAUGHT me how to use my legs effectively, she taught me how to use my hands effectively, and she taught me how NOT TO ABUSE A HORSE WITH MY RIDING during the short three months I was a residential student at her barn. She taught pure Forward Seat ala Littauer and at that time she had never had a dressage lesson. Using what she taught me when I leased my riding horse as a baby sitter to a traumatised dressage rider that rider, her stable owner/manager and her dressage teacher all exclaimed on how responsive my horse was to their correct aids and how well trained he was. Her dressage teacher told her to buy my horse because his basic non-dressage training was so good.
IMHO the day that American riders decided that Forward Seat and the US Cavalry seat were not “good enough” was the day that hunt seat riders became so much less effective as riders that they had to go to a dressage teacher to learn how to use their aids. MY Forward Seat riding teacher had absolutely no difficulty in teaching me how to use my aids effectively, how to train a horse effectively and how to re-train a traumatized horse effectively.
Thank you Kay Russell, may you rest in peace. Without you I never would have learned how to even begin to become a good rider.
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This!! All of this!! I, too, rode with Kay and learned the forward system which I continue to teach and promote. The most effective method of riding I’ve ever found!
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Kay Russell quickly told me that my riding was horrible and abusive. It did not matter if it was on my horse or on one of her horses, Kay Russell could not stand a horse in her lessons being abused.
I was so fortunate to be able to ride with her for that short while. Unfortunately Forward Seat riding teachers are extremely rare around here. I finally found an open minded hunt seat riding instructor and I taught her Forward Seat, not by me giving her lessons, but by explaining everything I did while riding her horses in my lessons. Since her lesson horses moved SO MUCH BETTER under me, and were so much more responsive to the aids after I rode them, she started putting me up on basically safe (for a decent rider) lesson horses who developed problems. Then she put me on recently acquired lesson horses with problems. She just likes seeing how the horses move under me when I ride.
In spite of me being crippled with MS and being limited to riding in the ring just on the flat.
She has told me that she has passed on things that I teach her to her regular students so that her other students can become better, more effective, and less abusive riders.
THANK YOU Kay Russell for teaching me well, and thank you Vladimir Littauer for developing the American System of Forward Seat riding
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What is the difference between forward seat and how riders go now? Couldn’t find a good image or explanation when I looked it up.
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The WHOLE PHILOSOPHY of Forward Seat riding is different than the philosophy of modern hunt seat riding and of modern dressage riding.
A lot of it consists of NOT BLOCKING the natural movement of the horse that you are riding, not blocking with the bit, not blocking with the seat, and not blocking it with the leg aids. A large part of not blocking the natural movement of the horse is to NOT ABUSE the horse with hand, seat or leg.
With my riding it is the HORSE that dictates how it carries its head, not me, except when the horse inverts, but after the head comes down what the horse does with its head is up to the horse. When I keep contact I EMPHASIZE the forward movements of my hands, and I keep my fingers as relaxed as possible (please note that I can only walk and trot at the moment, going faster the contact, dictated by the horse, is stronger.)
We DO NOT ask for collection, at all. If the horse voluntarily collects himself it is fine, and we apply our legs to get the horse to stretch its head and neck out again, no fuss, no hauling back on the reins, collection is entirely up to the horse (and it is RARE and momentary if you ride Forward Seat properly.) We encourage free, relaxed walks (the old flat-footed walk of fox-hunters), we keep the trot relaxed and we keep the canter as relaxed as possible in accord to what we are doing.
If the horse protests our riding we decide that it is OUR FAULT and work on correcting our hands, seat and legs until the horse relaxes and gets back into proper forward movement. With “ruined” horses I give the horses the benefit of the doubt, the horse has been badly trained and it is up to ME to show the horse a better, more relaxed and freer way of moving under me.
I ride mostly with a double bridle now, but I ride the same Forward Seat and use the same system of using my hands with the double bridle. I have successfully ridden these lesson horses just on the curb bit (tying up the bridoon rein so it sags significantly) and the horses reach forward with their head and they willingly take up contact with the curb and they do not alter their “head set” when I keep contact with the curb. The horse going around with its face behind the vertical is a major, incredibly major sin, showing that I, as a rider, truly suck and have no business trying to do advanced control on the horse. I want the horse’s nose stuck out and its throatlatch open and relaxed when I keep contact with both the snaffle or the curb (or bitless etc.)
I LISTEN TO THE HORSE, and when the horse tells me that my riding is horrible I work on fixing myself, because when I ride the Forward Seat properly the horses are content and happy with my riding. ONLY when I can ride the horse in a proper Forward Seat using Forward Control based on the Forward Schooling I give the horse, can I teach the horses that they no longer have to use their deep seated defenses and resistances to my riding.
My riding teachers LIKE seeing me ride their horses, especially when their dull lesson horses prick up their ears and start moving freely under me, striding forth fearlessly to meet the world.
Read “Common Sense Horsemanship” by Vladimir Littauer. In this books he delineates Forward Seat riding, control and schooling. If you need a slightly more advance book read “Training Hunters, Jumpers and Hacks” and “Riding and Schooling Horses” by Harry Chamberlin who taught at the US Cavalry schools. After reading, learning and understanding these books you should be able to work with the worst problem horses you run into and be able to train just about any horse to a pretty advanced level, if you are a good enough rider.
It was the HORSES who convinced me that Forward Seat Riding was the best way for me to ride. It is the best feeling when the horse you are riding goes “yes, yes, yes, I understand you and lets go have fun!” instead of “yuck, when will you finally get off and stop abusing me.”
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Yes, yes, and more yes!!! It’s nice to see someone GETS it.
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Littauer was a lecturer at Sweet Briar College. Their video archive collection has a number of Littauer’s training videos
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And it is too damn easy to stick out your shingle, call yourself a professional and spread bad information [teaching] and put improper training on horses.
The most vulnerable, the people who don’t know, are sitting ducks for signing up with Lucy Longtime barn rat/seat of the pants rider who decides she knows enough to go out, padding her resume with vague references to ‘lifelong’ experience [that probably doesn’t hold up to the light of day] and start charging… when observed by knowledgeable horseman it’s obvious they can’t ride their way around a TL xc course or a 2’ hunter course and their horse is lame.
It’s just far too easy for the NPs of the world to bluster their way into a gig as a trainer or rider, and risk doing actual, real harm to horses and riders alike.
Until you honestly express that you don’t know enough, you have no right to hang out a shingle.
Sorry, stepping off my soapbox
Agree with your points @atl_hunter
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Thank you for sharing - this is fantastic! I also love that he showed the appropriate balance and center of gravity for a flowing horse vs a collected horse, as there is a difference. He certainly didn’t “pooh pooh” collection, rather, he focused on the center of gravity and balance as appropriate for forward movement vs collection.
From a safety perspective, I do believe there has been a compromise in how far forward the rider is positioned going to a jump, as you can become a bit of a lawn dart if you are too far forward. And since related distances in a tiny ring came later in time, there is a need in hunter competitions today to collect in the line on a large-strided horse, which is why many hunter riders do need to collect a bit and sit back. You can’t just let the horse free flow forward to a deep chip. If it was the course of yesterday we would simply keep that open stride and find a different path to the jump.
What was the most exciting for me is that hunter riding hasn’t really changed that much. You can see that he leveraged dressage basics for collection, which is great as well! In some disciplines, when you get in the way back machine and see the roots of the discipline, you can see changes that have truly shifted away from the initial intent. I won’t name them to pick a fight.
Now, bringing this back to Parra (as this is way off track), it’s clear that there are trainers and programs that are not putting the best interests of the horse first. So what can we all do collectively to vote with our wallets and stop giving them business? How can we hold our friends and acquaintances who do business with these people accountable? What can each of us do to be a part of the change we want to see?
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I’m a big rookie, but the Forward Riding video, boy those riders seemed far forward on approach to the fences. I know a few horses from my past who would not have tolerated that well. The shoulders seemed farther forward than I’m accustomed to, even in the “collected” work, and particularly in the hunt saddle were doing what I would call “pumping”.
The collected riding reminded me of The Maestro, with the hand position and body position. Looked humped over, to me.
Shows what I know.
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Vladimir Littauer was initially trained in the Fillis based (dressage) system in the Russian cavalry schools. He speaks about dressage riding from EXPERIENCE, and has always been capable of collecting a horse.
But in the 1930s he completely changed to Forward Seat riding for most of his riding and all of his teaching riding students. It took him a while to develop it fully, but develop it he did.
As far as safety goes, I was riding one of my riding teacher’s lesson horses, at a decent speed of trot, and he tripped and went down on his knees when I was at the top of my posting. I stayed in the saddle, I stayed in the saddle securely, and my seat and legs did not move. THAT was the ride that converted that riding teacher, who mostly rode Western, to the stability, security, and safety of a proper Forward Seat. She later told me that even in a Western saddle she would have fallen off. That was the day she started to change her riding.
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