New Article on Cesar Parra Controversy

[EmilyM]

@Tackpud

It all comes down to education and who cares enough about the horse to study and avail themselves of the knowledge and research that is out there. Unfortunately most people just want to ride and win, not learn and educate.

100x times this. it’s not discipline dependent. the worst longeing that i have seen was when WEC hosted dressage shows along the HJ shows.

I do h/j, but i am committed to training my horses properly. making sure they use their backs and work on a lot of lateral movement for strength etc. so for me “dressage” is a means to an end, not an end in itself. When people preach of how humane and correct dressage is vs HJ, I ask is it correct for a horse to never leave an arena or not get turned out? I see that a lot with dressage people. I see it with HJ people too. the point is INCORRECT TRAINING AND BAD PROGRAMS ARE NOT DISCIPLINE SPECIFIC

[SillyHorse]

@endlessclimb

I’m a big rookie, but the Forward Riding video, boy those riders seemed far forward on approach to the fences. I know a few horses from my past who would not have tolerated that well. The shoulders seemed farther forward than I’m accustomed to, even in the “collected” work, and particularly in the hunt saddle were doing what I would call “pumping”.

The collected riding reminded me of The Maestro, with the hand position and body position. Looked humped over, to me.

Shows what I know.

You are not used to seeing true forward seat riding. The horses in the video are moving forward, as opposed to today’s horses that snooze around the courses. All we had to do, with horses that were moving forward properly, was keep our legs on, steer to the jump, and look where we were going.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Forward Seat horses are TRAINED to the Forward Seat method. If they are trained to a more abusive method of jumping, yes the horse will be extremely leery of anything a rider does that is out of their previous comfort zone and will suck back just waiting for the rider to abuse them with hand, leg and seat.

Back when I was training my Anglo-Arab to jump using the Forward Seat method AS A COMPLETE BEGINNER TO JUMPING (both of us were beginners to jumping) he never refused a jump. We ended up jumping 3’6" regularly .the ring, in the field, and any odd jumps we ran into on the trail.
Of course I followed Littauer all the way. By the way back then I often rode without anybody else around since I worked odd hours, 2nd shift.

There IS a difference between a proper Forward Seat and the riding that all too often puts the horse completely on its forehand. The horses know the difference and believe me these horses will often react appropriately to Forward Seat riding, especially over the jumps.

Modern competition dressage riding makes me SICK. I want to run into the ring and save all those poor horses from the abusive riding that they suffer. In over 50 years of riding I NEVER poked a hole in the side of my horse with my POW spurs and I NEVER caused the horse’s mouth to bleed. I may not be able to get a piaffe but i can turn horses who are super unwilling to move forward at all into free striding happy horses who are content to keep contact with my hands with their faces ahead of vertical, even though I am crippled with MS with problems with my hands, legs and balance.

[endlessclimb]

@Jackie_Cochran

If they are trained to a more abusive method of jumping, yes the horse will be extremely leery of anything a rider does that is out of their previous comfort zone and will suck back just waiting for the rider to abuse them with hand, leg and seat.

The jumpers I’ve ridden weren’t sucked back or “abused” into another way of riding… they just didn’t like a rider sitting that far forward. Sit upright and get off their shoulders and they jumped just fine. They were very sensitive, and tolerated no fools.

And just to be clear as to what’s being said here regarding this style of riding, an example.

This animal, being ridden in collection per the video, is not being abused (sitting trot here):

But this one is being abused:

Is that right? Because if it is, I’m done with forward seat riding. Any style that calls another “abuse” when it’s just a different style - is going to get a hard no from me.

[Jackie_Cochran]

As a devoted Forward Seat rider I admire proper, non-abusive dressage riding, so long as the horse’s face is at or in front of vertical AND so long it is obvious that the rider does not NEED a super tight noseband to keep the horse’s mouth shut.

When I see dressage riding like that I am going YES, YES, YES while wishing I could ride that well.

[endlessclimb]

I appreciate your perspective, thanks.

I do think we, as a whole, need to be careful with the word “abuse”. Sitting in a more upright position on a horse while asking more of them using reins and legs as communication tools is not what I think should get put in the abusive category.

[Manni01]

I read all the comments in the video and a lot of the requirements for the forward seat are very close to the classical dressage seat as taught in the original Richtlinien für Reiten und Fahren. I believe these two variations are related…

[Jackie_Cochran]

I remember the day when my then hunt seat riding teacher, trained by Gordon Wright the teacher of
George Morris, yelled that I was using my legs too much.

So what, when a rider rides in a proper Forward Seat we use our legs a good bit to keep up the impulsion of the horse. My Forward Seat teachers never told me that I was using my legs to much, instead they went USE YOUR LEGS when the horse started falling apart.

Modern Hunt Seat is no more proper Forward Seat riding than modern competitive dressage is proper Forward Seat riding.

I have an extensive library of dressage books, which I read mostly to learn more about the proper timing of my aids. I read these books, I think about what I read in these books, and I take what I can use from these dressage books and integrate it into my Forward Seat riding. I even discuss what I read about dressage with my riding teacher. She does not always agree with me but we do have wonderful discussions about the theory and practice of riding dressage (and yes this teacher did spend the money to get 18 months of dressage lessons with the best dressage teacher she could find and believes, like a lot of people, that all hunt seat riders need dressage lessons to learn how to use their aids effectively. We have agreed to disagree about this when I point out that it was Kay Russell, a Forward Seat teacher, who taught me how to use my legs and hands effectively.)

[fivestrideline]

@endlessclimb

I’m a big rookie, but the Forward Riding video, boy those riders seemed far forward on approach to the fences. I know a few horses from my past who would not have tolerated that well. The shoulders seemed farther forward than I’m accustomed to, even in the “collected” work, and particularly in the hunt saddle were doing what I would call “pumping”.

You know, if you posted those flatwork clips but the riders were “hunters”, they’d get absolutely trashed for “perching” “hunching” “humping” and “crappy hunter flatwork”.

I also have ridden horses that really didn’t want the rider forward - different horses appreciate different rides, and it doesn’t make one position or another “abuse”.

ETA: I have no dog in this fight - I just think people get lost in the weeds about the little harmless details when we have much bigger GLARING issues to deal with before we start worrying about hip angles

[sascha]

@endlessclimb

This animal, being ridden in collection per the video, (sitting trot here):

That was absolutely painful to watch. (I took the liberty of removing a few of your words in case anyone took them in earnest in this not quite in context setting.)

@Jackie_Cochran

In over 50 years of riding I NEVER poked a hole in the side of my horse with my POW spurs and I NEVER caused the horse’s mouth to bleed.

Some of us can claim the exact same AND can train a horse to piaffe. Can’t be done while hanging over their front end like a lead weight though …

[endlessclimb]

If it wasn’t in a video older than he is, I could mistaken it for the maestro. Bouncing on the horses back, no following motion at all.

But again, I’m a rookie. (And I mean that, I’m not being facetious)

[sascha]

Even rookies are able to use their eyes and their empathy for what the horse may be feeling on its back.

[Jackie_Cochran]

And I truly admire these dressage riders who can get the horse to do the dressage movements properly. I will never be that level of rider and I know it to the depths of my bones.

And also remember that Littauer was trained to ride dressage in the Fillis school of dressage which does have BIG differences with modern competition dressage.

[sascha]

Fairly certain the Fillis school would not have advocated pounding on a horse’s back in the sitting trot

[blue_heron]

I see a guy trying to sit the trot in a saddle that puts his body in a chair seat unless he is standing over his stirrups. It also seems to be in slow motion which emphasizes the movement of his body and his hands are pretty quiet. The rest of the video was out of fashion but not abusive. I have certainly seen worse sitting trot in modern dressage competition.

[sascha]

@blue_heron

I have certainly seen worse sitting trot in modern dressage competition.

I think we’ve all seen as bad and worse, but in an educational video from someone who purports being an expert and having the horse’s best interests in mind at every step? No.

It’s a bad, stiff, crashing on the horse’s back trot rather than a sit that uses joints and core to absorb the motion and cushion the horse’s back. I’ve seen many better sitting trots from the likes of hunter riders who claim to hate and are “bad at” sitting trot.

[blue_heron]

What year was this from? I think we’ve evolved A LOT in our understanding of biomechanics since this video. If someone wants to sit trot in harmony with the horse, his position is not helping and preventing him from sitting quietly.

Hunter riders sitting trot are usually “hovering” very slightly above the saddle. And they care a lot more about proper hip and heel alignment than what’s being shown in the video.

[fivestrideline]

@sascha

I’ve seen many better sitting trots from the likes of hunter riders who claim to hate and are “bad at” sitting trot.

Having a decent sitting trot in a jump saddle with short stirrups is quite a skill and not easy! Many hunter riders can sit the trot just fine in an appropriate AP or dressage saddle. BUT many can still pull off a decent sitting trot while fighting their tack for it.

@sascha

I think we’ve all seen as bad and worse, but in an educational video from someone who purports being an expert and having the horse’s best interests in mind at every step? No.

Agreed. It’s by no means the worst riding I’ve seen today but it’s also not a masterclass on sympathetic, horse first riding.

“Forward seat” works for over fences in some scenarios, and clearly some horses prefer that soft, closed hip ride. Others might prefer the rider to sit up and in the saddle carry their hands higher.

Again, I think different styles work for different people and horses. I’m much more worried about hyperflexion and abusive training methods in the context of this thread

[Mondo]

@sascha

Some of us can claim the exact same AND can train a horse to piaffe. Can’t be done well hanging over their front end like a lead weight though …

Amen, sister! <3

[sascha]

@fivestrideline

I’m much more worried about hyperflexion and abusive training methods in the context of this thread

Absolutely! The abuse point was brought in by someone else as a blanket statement about modern competitive dressage. That was countered with a still from the (awful) sitting trot from the video and a still of CJD clearly showing a sympathetic seat. While I believe the sitting trot in the video is horrible, and I would prefer no horse had to put up with it, I would not classify it as abuse … if the rider were on a mission to improve it