New Article on Cesar Parra Controversy

[atl_hunter]

This thread has somehow been completely hijacked by forward seat riding, hasn’t it? It’s a bit ridiculous how far off topic we’ve gotten from the atrocities of true abuse by Helgstrand and Parra.

The ride today is so much more technical. Riders need an independent seat and need to be able to adapt to what the horse needs. Sometimes you need to counterbalance, sometimes you need to sit back to help a horse over a bad distance. It’s so important to not buy into “one seat is superior to the others” mindset (I realize nobody actually said that, but it sure comes off this way) as a rider needs to be able to adjust to what a horse needs at that second in time.

Having empathy for what the horse needs and not taking a cookie cutter approach to riding is part of what gets us in these abusive circles. Someone learned something 10 or 20 or even 40 years ago, and sometimes forget to factor in recent datapoints or findings that show that we have more information to do something today that is even better for the horse. We also need the support of judges who continuously reward certain styles, and are afraid to vote no with their placings and scores. Every time they reward and obviously agitated or sluggish horse they are condoning it. When people see it win, they emulate it.

So, what can the everyday equestrian who loves this sport and wants to see it make it to the next century do to make an impact?

Surely it’s not debate the “abusiveness” of classical dressage riding.

Everyone have a great night. I’ll come back when we start discussing the true offensive aspects of the sport.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

My first introduction to a leg-yield was following a John Lyons-approved instructor in a JL magazine he used to publish.

You bent the horse’s nose to your boot, applied inside leg, and when the horse fell sideways - ta da! Leg yield!

Advanced leg yield? Horse was still basically falling away from the leg by bending the neck across.

I laugh about it now.

[alicen]

@endlessclimb

I’m a big rookie, but the Forward Riding video, boy those riders seemed far forward on approach to the fences

Keep in mind that that forward seat was developed to contradict what we might now call the “backwards” seat: https://www.etsy.com/se-en/listing/746789841/early-fox-hunter-horse-jumping-fence-fox
This way, that way and we finally end up in the middle way.

[Ghazzu]

It was even worse than that

[alicen]

Right. The idea that we “lifted” the front end over the jump.

[Cowgirl]

Huh, I showed hunters and jumpers when I was a child and my long term coach was an AHSA (USEF) judge. I never heard of a hunter/jumper seat in these terms (forward seat and backward seat). For me, it was taught as 3 point seat and 2 point seat (meaning your sitting anatomy). When you say “forward seat”, can that still be 3 point or are you always riding in 2 point? I’ve even seen some people that ride in what I would call no point seat (they are always standing in their stirrups or riding on their knees). I was taught to ride in 3 point seat but my shoulders were more forward than in dressage. Two point was coming much into fashion at the end of my junior career and my trainer did not like it as she thought it put the weight too far forward to the jump. I was also taught to use an automatic release, but when I did have a horse who I could crest release, my crest release was always much lower on the neck that what I see with 2 point. I have never seen anyone sit backwards like that except cross country down a bank or into water. That picture looks both dangerous AND abusive to me! I may be way too many decades out of h/j to know, however. But what has this all got to do with CP?

[Alterration]

A billion years ago (exaggeration) people were taught to lift the horse over the jump. Then people were taught to lean back (but not lift) over the jump. Then the forward seat evolved from Caprielli and then Littaeur’s work began from Fillis’s.

Captain Littauer might not have been the greatest rider but he taught a method by which even the not-talented count ride non-abusively in an era where lots of people rode. There are elements still that I appreciate greatly of the forward seat training, mainly in young horse training of letting them find their own balance (before the higher level collected work).

I have zero idea what this has to do with Parra, but I have a great appreciation for what Littauer brought to the equine table. I will say that the happiest, soundest, longest-living horses that I have ever had have come out of that system, so I can’t knock it - even if it is not so closely related to “classical dressage”.

It was developed for an entirely different purpose.

[Cowgirl]

So the foreward seat can still be three point with the shoulders more forward?

The reason I ask is that I remember a great debate over how to ride extended trot in dressage and the ones who did the best always rode in 3 point, but their shoulders slightly forward (instead of sort of leaning back with a driving seat like a lot of riders did at the time). The best example of slight shoulder forward for extended trot that I remember is of Guenter Seidel, but I cannot remember the ride.

[Alterration]

Yes. There is or was still a three point forward seat position. It was still a lighter seat, where the weight was still very much in the base of support (the stirrups) vs the seat. But it was still appropriate for many occasions provided it was in the correct balance for the horse.

[enjoytheride]

The 1930s. Not everything we have done with horses has been terrible between then and now despite some posters waxing philosophical but Parra definitely is. I’ll also add that the use of only the curb rein, and the double in general on untrained lesson horses is counterintuitive to the dressage process of training into the double. I am sure that it allows more control for a disabled rider with strength issues.

[Jackie_Cochran]

After finally buying Littauer’s first two books describing the FS (both published then republished with different titles-basically “Forward Riding” and “More About Forward Riding” In finally understood the FS positions when we keep out butts in the saddle.

Lengthen your stirrups 1-3 holes. Shoulders open, head up looking FORWARD above the horse’s neck and head, not looking down at the ears or neck, caved loin, seat-weight on the front of the pubic bone with most of the weight on the “rocker” bones of the pelvis, with the seat bones just grazing the saddle without weight. I asked my riding teacher if she realized that the Forward Seat. had its own version of sitting the trot and canter.

She wanted to see this, I showed her, she liked it and how her lesson horse (advanced sensitive horse with “problems”) responded favorably and my contact stayed light and responsive because my seat was secure in the saddle. This puts the rider’s weight on the place of the horse’s back that moves less under the rider, the place where the horse’s back is stronger because of the powerful Serratus ventralis and Trapezius thoracica support the horse’s weight, the Serratus from the top of the scapula and the Trapezius from the supraspinous ligament. This is the part of the horse’s back that is BUILT to carry weight and has stability from these muscles and the connection of the costal cartileges of the first 7 ribs to the sternum. Cartilages, ligaments, ribs, sternum, and powerful muscles support the weight on the forehand of the horse and of the rider in the Forward Seat position.

The reason I mention all of this in this thread is that I now think that many of the “classsical” dressage trainers introduce collection way too early, before the horse’s bones, ligaments, muscles and nerves develop the necessary strength to carry the rider in collection. Chamberlin’s book has the training schedule of basic campaign training for TWO YEARS before collection is really worked on and true dressage can proceed without much difficulty. The horse’s body can carry the rider’s weight with relaxed muscles, the horse understands the aids, and adding collection is more like putting frosting on a cake than pulling back with all your strength while the HUGE knee/thigh blocks of the saddle prevent the rider from being pulled over the horse’s ears.

At the end of this training the horse ends up with proper muscle development and the proper understanding of the language of the aids. Stuff becomes easy for both horse and rider. THIS is the proper time to start working on collected gaits, the horse is ready to do it.

I see no proof that Cesar Parra does any of this initial training. That is a big part of the reason why he has to be so abusive in order to get a sad imitation of a true dressage horse. When one pulls back on the reins one HAS TO be abusive with the spurs and whip to get the horse to move forward. This can cause physical harm to the horse.

[deeh]

A thousand times thank you for expressing that. Completely agree.

[Alterration]

Quoting on my phone doesn’t work terribly well, but I completely echo your sentiments about starting to work on collection too soon. I have some theories about why the invasion of the warmbloods encouraged that kind of training, as more and more horses popped out of the womb more like a dressage horse in vertical balance than a TB in a very horizontal balance.

[Aussie_2020]

Oh a 100 times this! On a forward horse you become one with their balance and energy. It’s the best feeling in the world. Part of the reason I love thoroughbreds so much, I knew they were going where I pointed.

I’ve never done hunting but was an avid trail rider. Galloping in the open, and giving your horse a free rein is a great way to have them learn responsibility for themselves and the rider.

Dressage of today is a turn off. Way too much crank, crank, crank.

[Bogey2]

what exactly is cranking in dressage?

[Aussie_2020]

All you have to do is watch upper classes.

[quietann]

Ok… This is convincing me that my riding instructor when I was a teen was teaching forward seat. I enjoyed that much more than dressage.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Sorry I’m sort of late with this comment.

When I read “Gymnasium of the Horse” by Steinbrecht I was so totally amazed to find a clear exposition that closely resembles the description of the Forward Seat for Slow Gaits as written by Vladimir Littauer in his “Riding Forward” book. Steinbrecht recommended this seat for super-green horses just beginning under saddle until the horse’s back gained strength, and for when the horse indicated that his back hurt.

[Mondo]

@Jackie_Cochran

and adding collection is more like putting frosting on a cake than pulling back with all your strength while the HUGE knee/thigh blocks of the saddle prevent the rider from being pulled over the horse’s ears.

Dressage riders are not and never should be “pulling back on the reins.” That’s not how any of this works. If that is what you think is going on, you have a less than perfect understanding of creating collection. I also fail to see how this discussion relates to Parra and abusive training techniques.

[Mondo]

@Aussie_2020

All you have to do is watch upper classes.

Sorry, no. If you get that from “watching upper classes,” you don’t understand what you are looking at. Hey, I get it. There are some people riding at the upper levels who do that. But it’s not everyone and it’s not always the ones who are winning. As I said in an earlier post, nobody is pulling on the reins. A horse in true self carriage will maintain the frame and the collection if the rider drops the reins entirely.