Hi guys! So I have a horse and he’s getting a little pushy and can have quite an attitude at times. I’ll be loping, or even trotting, and he’ll push his nose out and try to take off a little. Right now I’m using a Martha Josey “start to finish” bit and I’ve been using that since August of 2018. I want to know y’alls take on whether I should try a new bit, or a new training method, or what. I don’t particularly like to go to a harsher bit. I’ve always been taught that a bigger bit doesn’t fix your problems, it just hides them for a little while. Let me know what your take on this is. Please and thank you!
Is it this bit here? https://www.joseywesternstore.com/product-p/b-140w.htm I’ve never seen anything like that, but I’m sure someone here has. I’m posting the link so maybe they can comment.
Maybe he needs something without a nose band or instead of a chain mouth, do something with some chain in the middle and solid outer parts, like this https://www.statelinetack.com/item/western-ss-chain-wonder-gag-bit/WBE19/ I would particularly go back to to a snaffle with 3 breaks since it can lie against the tongue but is not as soft as a chain. IMO
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It’s not the bit. Teach him to soften.
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Do you have any tips on how to do that?
Thank you for the suggestion, I’ll definitely keep it in mind.
The bit you’re using is plenty harsh. It’s also not a bit you are going to use to soften a horse. I agree with Showbizz, it’s not the bit. What you need is training. Put your horse back in a smooth snaffle, a true snaffle with no shanks, and go back to doing slower work. Get him more responsive to your seat and legs. Work on lateral flexion. Work on trotting on a loose rein and rating his speed. Use a one rein stop to shut him down if he wants to take off. Work on transitions. He will be less likely to take off if he’s expecting you to ask him to switch gears.
Don’t think of it so much as a pushy attitude. It’s likely anticipation that comes with an increase in speed, and you need to work on keeping the brain working in that situation. It also could be anxiety, maybe due to that bit. It’s a lot of signals coming at a horse-he may or may not like that chain mouthpiece, plus it’s a gag bit so it’s riding up into the corners of his mouth and telling him to lift his head while the poll pressure says to lower it, and then the noseband is engaging. Go back to a snaffle and when things have improved, find a better leverage bit with no gag. Here are two simpler options:
https://www.equinenow.com/store-item-3403781
https://www.tombalding.com/35-long-sweetwater.html (You can find cheaper versions of this.)
It would be easier in a lesson environment!
I start in a snaffle. I pick up one rein, say left, and tip the horse’s nose left and with my legs ask him to walk a small circle. If he’s not soft or balanced, he’ll have trouble, and I keep using my legs until I feel him soften, then release hand and leg. Same to the right. I do not bump my hands - hands are still, legs are busy.
Once they can reliably do circles each way and stay balanced and forward (no pivoting! One two three four consistent rhythm only) and soft will I ask them to go from one direction to the next. Then I do trot, but at trot I make circles a bit bigger and use some outside rein. Everything has to be leg to hand - back to front. It’s hard to teach on the internet 
I started working with him in the bit I shared, because he was originally working in something like this https://www.statelinetack.com/item/r…h-bit/E018214/ with a curb chain. The “trainer” I was with at the time suggested I work him in the start to finish. The only thing I know about bits is what I’ve picked up on here and there, and I know everyone has their own opinions. I say all this because he bends beautifully (amazing even, I know it’s my horse and everyone likes to brag on their horse but I’m not exaggerating), and he’s relatively balanced. If put a snaffle on him we will stop at the walk and at the trot and most likely at the lope, but any faster and we will have no brakes. I’m sure it would be beneficial to actually have someone in person who can help, but there’s practically no-one. I do really appreciate the help!
I don’t have time now so I’ll try to add to this tonight, but your horse would best be served by you putting him back in a smooth snaffle and doing what Showbizz said. You also can work on transitions, a lot. He’s less likely to run away with you if he’s anticipating a change in gait. He needs to learn to go better off your seat and legs. Transitions, slow patterns like circles and figure eights, etc will also help keep his brain on you.
I don’t think of him as having an attitude as much as holes in his training and probably some anxiety. That bit may be part of the anxiety. It has poll pressure telling him to lower his head, gag action telling him to raise his head, and a noseband that engages. When he’s responding better in a snaffle I think he would do better in a more basic leverage bit (than the one you currently use).
https://www.tombalding.com/35-long-sweetwater.html This comes in a cheaper version as well.
https://www.equinenow.com/store-item-3403781
There are also decent leverage bits that have jointed mouthpieces if you think your horse actually prefers those. They do tend to collapse around the jaw more than the other types though.
https://www.equinenow.com/store-item-437456
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Is this the same horse that had stifle issues last year?
How did that go?
Has he had a vet check recently?
Also, I know you have been saddle searching. Does your saddle fit this horse?
When a horse is having a behavior problem, I definately always consider if the horse might be uncomfortable about something (lameness, saddle fit, etc) before changing bits or changing my training. Of course, if the behavior is from pain, you need to address the pain first before addressing training.
Personally, I don’t care for the particular bit you are using. I don’t like combination bits and I don’t like bits that are similar to a Wonder Bit. They just haven’t worked well for me, and I haven’t liked how horses have responded to them.
If he’s trying to take off on you with that Start-to-Finish bit, then (if it is not pain) it is definately a training problem. He should not be able to push through that. If he is, you need to re-evaluate the hand/rein cures you are giving him, and/or what you are doing with your seat and legs.
You are very correct that going to a harsher bit doesn’t fix your problem. However, in my opinion, I think you are already using a decent amount of bit. Ultimately, I think all horses should be capable of being ridden in a snaffle. Doesn’t mean that that is the BEST bit for them, or the bit you run barrels in, but I think they should be trained enough that they can respect a snaffle.
What other bits do you currently already have that you could try on him? (rather than going out and buying something that may or may not work)
I do have a saddle that fits him, he does need his teeth done and I’m hoping that it will help him be more comfortable. And not so bratty. I have started working him in a german martingale for now. I hope to have his teeth done within the next 2 weeks. The vet looked at him about a week ago and just didn’t have the time to do his teeth right then. I am still playing around with the bits I have that aren’t combination and aren’t similar to the Wonder Bit. In fact the Start-To-Finish is the only thing I have like that.
On a different topic… What would you use for ulcers?
I hope you are not using the martingale with a leverage bit. I prefer it not be used at all, but they should only be used with a true snaffle. And to help you see where your horse is coming from, replace the word “bratty” with “uncomfortable” or “confused” or “anxious”.
If you do a search you’ll probably find a ton of ulcer advice.
Yeah. You need work to work AWAY from the barrels, not on the pattern, your issue is you are only riding his head and can’t control the rest of his body. Thats going to risk running a wider track and cost you time. Like GP level Jumpers, when you add speed they can get excited and like all timed event horses, they know where the timers are and that they are done when the get there. So they can get pretty excited and blow through your control efforts.
So you need to have them very well schooled away from the pattern or course before you ask for speed. No, they aren’t gojng to pity pat around like a WP horse but they will learn to listen. It’s that D word again, Dressage. Just a fancy French term for basic training of the horse. You control haunch, shoulder, speed and direction independently and when you put them on a timed course, it often keeps your track the fastest and the barrels standing.
I understand that bit, it’s a good one with multiple pressure points. But don’t think it was ever intended as the ONLY bit to ever use on the horse, especially for schooling away from the barrels. I’d go to just a snaffle, no curb action, and just work on basic exercises like circles, long straight lines ( out of the arena if possible), transitions. Don’t even go near a barrel for a week or so. You don’t have to go sloooowwww. But he needs to learn to adjust speed by shifting back.
There should be plenty out there on YouTube and elsewhere concerning schooling Barrel horses away from the Barrels. Fact they get too smart, anticipate and/or get sour with too much pattern work. Bite you in the hinny in course or pattern. Do you have a coach who can help you away from the barrels?
Horses often get heavy and blow through your aids if they are sore behind. Need to check that. Also a good reason to spend most of your practice time away from the actual pattern. It’s hard on them over time, just like jumping.
A german martingal is not designed to be used with the Start-To-Finish bit. I would not recommend using those two things together.
A GM can be useful training tool when it is used correctly and appropriately. In your case, your horse simply needs to go back to basics and re-learn how to be soft to the bit.
If you do not know how to soften him to the bit, then go take some lessons with a trainer. Your timing and “feel” are very important. Yes, there are lots of YouTube videos out there but the difference with having a hands-on trainer is that they can coach you on the spot. They can tell you, if you didn’t release the bit pressure too soon, or too late, or if you picked up too hard, etc etc. It’s that individual feedback that can help you and your horse do better QUICKER. Watching videos doesn’t teach you how to develop that feel.
Why do you think your horse has ulcers?
Has he been diagnosed by the vet?
What did your vet prescribe?
Your horse’s diet and turnout schedule can play a role in this. Specifically, what is his turnout schedule and what are you feeding? (hay, grass, grain, supplements, etc)
I’m not using it with the Start-To-Finish bit, I probably should have made that clear. I did speak to someone at my barn and she said that she would help me soften him, she learned a good bit under Charles Wilhelm.
This is a different horse, who is hauled to races about once a month. I think she has ulcers because she has stopped eating at races and isn’t quite herself.
She hasn’t been diagnosed by a vet.
She gets turned out around 7 AM and back in around 4:30-5 PM and stays in a stall with hay all night. I am feeding Tucker Milling All Stock Feed with Exceed 6-way. She has grass when she’s turned out.
If this horse in question does indeed have ulcers, I would not feed her that all-stock feed anymore as there is molasses, corn, and oats in it. In general, if a horse has ulcers, those are ingredients you want to stay away from. You could look into Purina Ultium Gastric or else Purina Outlast instead, as those are supposed to be good for ulcer-prone horses.
You could also consider giving her an ulcer medication the day of a race, to see if that helps. That is something you can consult with your vet on to see what they offer. My vet offers a compounded medication that is much cheaper than UlcerGuard.
You are right, anyone can have an opinion but any opinion should be based on knowledge.
I don’t get what it is about western riders that they seem to think they have to be constantly changing bits. Is it that y’all don’t ride with trainers? Don’t take lessons?
Georgia barrel racer, you don’t define what you mean by “pushy,” or “attitude,” but I would like to know why you think the problem might be in the bit. Have you checked the fit of your saddle? Is your horse up to date on his dental work? It sounds to me like he is trying to evade whatever you are doing to his mouth, so I would look to my seat and legs and hands and think about what I might be doing that is causing him to “push his nose out.”
Are you riding with a trainer? Where are you on lessons? How long have you been riding with a trainer?
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:lol: Seriously?:lol:
:uhoh:Did you realize you were posting in the Western forum when you wrote that? :uhoh:
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With the most respect, if you had read through the previous posts you would see that he does need his teeth done, and they will be done within two weeks. I don’t have a trainer, all my previous 'trainers" weren’t good at all and at this point I know just as much as they did. I rode english for seven years and have been working with barrels for three years.
