Bayhawk you know very little about TBs and yet you keep yapping on and on about them.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8048569]
Bayhawk you know very little about TBs and yet you keep yapping on and on about them.[/QUOTE]
I know that they are almost irrelevant in todayâs sporthorse breeding. Who needs to know more ?
Not conversing with you any further GAPâŠ
The recent issue of the Chronicle has a breeding article. Richard Spooner advocates for more blood, they need lighter and quicker added back in for the sport.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8048292]
When a top WB mare is taken to a TB stallionâŠyou will witness what is lost in the foal if you can be honest with yourselves. This is why it is extremely difficult for a breeder to take one of his/her good mares to a TB stallion. You often donât realize what is gained (if anything) until the next generation or two or three later.
Itâs too much of a risk right nowâŠhence the comment of âlet the neighbor do itâ.
QUOTE]
There are many âcampsâ in the world of breeding. There are those that like Tb or AA influence, and there are those that donât. There are those that want to breed solely via specialization, and there are those that want a more universal athlete. I have listened to the most well respected breeders discuss this (often heated) and I think both have valid points.
I know for the Hanoverian folks many like a TB, and hence why Laurieâs Crusador was so popular. Having said that they do acknowledge that it is usually not the F1 generation where the benefit is seen. Often it can be quite the opposite with a reduction of suspension/ animation of gaits and hence why these horses can be harder to sell. However, I truly believe in generational breeding and the benefits can clearly be seen in the F2 generation. These horses are freer in their bodies, have better saddle position, have more refinement and usually a better front end. But many of these breeders need to sell foals and having a Tb sire (or dam) in a dressage horse makes that a harder road to travel, especially since the F1 generation may have lost some qualities.
I think 10-15 years from now may be interesting. As LC has died, at least in the Hanoverian world there is no TB sire that has filled his shoes. Only time will really answer this question as population genetics lose the TB up close what will happen. I also am curious over time what will happen with the specialization of horses and we lose the versatile athlete.
Personally I like having the blood. My broodmare is Davignon-Matcho AA and you can really see the influence of the AA. I have a foal coming by Diamo Gold who is DiMaggio-ExLibris who is by the Tb sire Elan xx. Again, this is dressage oriented breeding, so things are a bit different.
How many very good Holsteiner showjumpers still look like the old type Holsteiner with less blood?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/549887/419/Horse_Favorit.jpg
Good offspring of Favorit (after some generations):
Labrador by Langraf I
Rigoletto by Ramzes
Ramiro Z by Raimond
Bayhawk clearly doesnât believe in eventing as a sport nor that event horses are sporthorses. The current world champion is 83.20 % Blood, almost equally divided between AA and TBs.
Eventers are the ultimate all-round horse. Dressage bred and jumper bred horses frequently donât have either gallops or efficient jumps or stamina.
[QUOTE=Elles;8049042]
Good offspring of Favorit (after some generations):
Labrador by Langraf I
Rigoletto by Ramzes
Ramiro Z by Raimond[/QUOTE]
Some of the better offspring by Labrador (after a few generations):
Carracas by Campione
Candyboy by Concerto I
Ontario by Oglio xx
Sputnick by Sacramento Song
Some of the best offspring by Rigoletto:
Lesandra by Gentleman
Chauvinist Z by Carthago
Zariena by QUASIMODO Z
Temme by Matterhorn
Sebastian by Mermus R
Abantos by Abgar xx
Treffer by Abgar xx
Easy Boy by Zeoliet
Orlando by Holland
Chill R Z by Chellano Z
QUANNAN-R by Kannan
M.ADERMIE 9 by Libero H
M.ADERMIE 128 by Prince Paradiso
Gadermie by Joost
W.ADERMIE 54 by Namelus R
Radermus by Burggraaf
Utopia by Namelus R
etc. etc.
Ramiro Z:
Lacky by Lavall I
Colmina by Colman
Lerche by Quantum
Paradies III by Acord II
Bonzai H by BALOUBET DU ROUET
CHAMONIX H by Carnute
Casco by Cascavelle
PICASSO DES BLES by Cassini I
Ibiza by Acord II
Cabano by Carbano
Carassino by Concerto II
Chikaâs Way by Caretino
Retina V by Caretino
Winn Winn by Chin Chin
CASSANDRO I by Caletto I
Cornetto by Caletto I
Caliskan by Caletto I
Fine Kiss by Caletto I
Ulina I by Chicago
Landprinz by Landadel
Holsatia by Landaris
etc. etc.
âHow many very good Holsteiner showjumpers still look like the old type Holsteiner with less blood.â
I think the holsteiners are a specialized hybrid bred for jump with a strong xx influence. The attractive one are as elegant and fluid as the best looking xx we love to love. I dont think there is anyway for a closed (pure) breed book to compete against a open (nonpure) book with a singular mission. Even the holseiner book has had to âopenâ" up even more to keep up. I dont find it offensive as what I like about the modern holsteiner is what it has been "imbedded " from the xx in its look and in its more âbloodedâ way.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8049079]
Bayhawk clearly doesnât believe in eventing as a sport nor that event horses are sporthorses. The current world champion is 83.20 % Blood, almost equally divided between AA and TBs.
Eventers are the ultimate all-round horse. Dressage bred and jumper bred horses frequently donât have either gallops or efficient jumps or stamina.[/QUOTE]
There you go putting words in my mouth yet again. I absolutely believe in eventers as sporthorses as they are an Olympic discipline and I have immense respect for the riders and the horses.
You only prove my point VineyâŠthe last several Eventing champions are not TbâsâŠthey have a high percentage of TB blood but they are NOT TBâs. They are coming from WB mothers.
You should have been to Wellington back at the end of January and watched the inaugural event at WEF. The Tbâs couldnât even jump a very easy 1.25meter course. Every time they finished the stadium jumping it looked like a bomb went off behind them.
The last OlympicsâŠsame thing. The U.S. team looked pitiful in stadium riding their Tbâs. 20 some faults , refusals âŠit was absolutely ugly. They got their butts handed to them by horses from Wb stamms.
Opgun Louvo has a TB motherline. His dam was by an SF stallion, but had an AA mother and a TB grandmother. His sire was by a TB out of the great SF broodmare Opaline des Pins who had an AA sire. Opaline des Pins was the dam of the Olympic gold medal horse Jus de Pommes and several other world class jumpers. But you still canât get around the 83.2% Blood and TB motherline in Opgun Louvo.
If you want to look at Michael Jungâs horse, its sire was TB, and total blood percentage was 63.50 or so. Third was Chilli Morning, whose sire was a TB and his blood percentage is also 63+. Fourth was Classic Moet who has a TB sire and damsire, and is classic British event horse breeding with an Irish mare, breeding unknown, on the bottom. Blood % is 75 or more. Fifth was Maxime Livio, whose horse is a French SF with 74.6% Blood. Sixth was Karin Donckers; her horse with 76% Blood was by Vigo DâArsouilles out of a TB mare. Seventh was Horsewareâs Barny, the only Holsteiner in the top ten. He has a TB sire and his total Blood percentage is 71+. The common factor here is TB blood very close up.
If breeders donât use TBs how are they going to keep the percentages up?
There were only two TBs at the Wellington Showcase, and both went clear within the time in SJ. You may not have liked their technique but they both got the job done. (Iâve looked up the scores and results and breeding of the horses.) The two full TBs are Anthony Patch and Petite Flower. All the rest are some flavor of WB. Oops. Forgot Sanskrit, but he only had 1 rail, so not like a bomb.
Given Eventing Stadium Jumping, which is not the same as Show Jumping, the scores look much better than usual. There were far more clears than is usual for a âhigh performanceâ event. But of course having sj before XC means the horses arenât tired.
http://www.evententries.com/livescoring/123456.html
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8049497]
There you go putting words in my mouth yet again. I absolutely believe in eventers as sporthorses as they are an Olympic discipline and I have immense respect for the riders and the horses.
You only prove my point VineyâŠthe last several Eventing champions are not TbâsâŠthey have a high percentage of TB blood but they are NOT TBâs. They are coming from WB mothers.
âŠ[/QUOTE]
Since this decision is about TB sires, there should be no âproblemâ with horses bred for Eventing using TB stallions.
WBFSH Top 10 Eventing Sire Ranking
1 (2) MASTER IMP XX - 1,023
2 (1) HERALDIK XX - 851
3 (16) CONTENDRO I - 708
4 (9) GHAREEB XX - 662
5 (5) CRUISING - 643
6 (4) JUMBO - 632
7 (12) CULT HERO XX - 577
8 (3) RICARDO Z - 519
9 (60) ITUANGO XX - 491
10 (33) RAMIRO B - 472
And finishers at WEG had quite a preponderance of TB.
http://eventingnation.com/home/breaking-down-the-breeding-of-top-weg-finishers/
It will be interesting to see what the next 5 yearsâ breeding and selections look like, especially within the Holsteiner breed.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8049552]
Opgun Louvo has a TB motherline. His dam was by an SF stallion, but had an AA mother and a TB grandmother. His sire was by a TB out of the great SF broodmare Opaline des Pins who had an AA sire. Opaline des Pins was the dam of the Olympic gold medal horse Jus de Pommes and several other world class jumpers. But you still canât get around the 83.2% Blood and TB motherline in Opgun Louvo.
If you want to look at Michael Jungâs horse, its sire was TB, and total blood percentage was 63.50 or so. Third was Chilli Morning, whose sire was a TB and his blood percentage is also 63+. Fourth was Classic Moet who has a TB sire and damsire, and is classic British event horse breeding with an Irish mare, breeding unknown, on the bottom. Blood % is 75 or more. Fifth was Maxime Livio, whose horse is a French SF with 74.6% Blood. Sixth was Karin Donckers; her horse with 76% Blood was by Vigo DâArsouilles out of a TB mare. Seventh was Horsewareâs Barny, the only Holsteiner in the top ten. He has a TB sire and his total Blood percentage is 71+. The common factor here is TB blood very close up.
If breeders donât use TBs how are they going to keep the percentages up?
There were only two TBs at the Wellington Showcase, and both went clear within the time in SJ. You may not have liked their technique but they both got the job done. (Iâve looked up the scores and results and breeding of the horses.) The two full TBs are Anthony Patch and Petite Flower. All the rest are some flavor of WB. Oops. Forgot Sanskrit, but he only had 1 rail, so not like a bomb.
Given Eventing Stadium Jumping, which is not the same as Show Jumping, the scores look much better than usual. There were far more clears than is usual for a âhigh performanceâ event. But of course having sj before XC means the horses arenât tired.
http://www.evententries.com/livescoring/123456.html[/QUOTE]
I donât know where you got your stats but I was there , I watched all 3 phases and I promise you there were more than 2 TBâs there. I wish I had saved the order of go and I could have told you exactly.
And by the wayâŠthis was not a TB bashing thread but you TB Jihadists have turned it into one yet again.
Itâs not my fault that you have been reduced to only being able to cite TB blood percentage , and not an actual TB.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8049723]
I donât know where you got your stats but I was there , I watched all 3 phases and I promise you there were more than 2 TBâs there. I wish I had saved the order of go and I could have told you exactly.[/QUOTE]
Just click on the live scoring from the event which I linked. You may have been there, but your recollections donât show up in the scores.
You said there was no place in sporthorse breeding for TBs. At least eight of the top ten had a TB parent.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8049732]
Just click on the live scoring from the event which I linked. You may have been there, but your recollections donât show up in the scores.
You said there was no place in sporthorse breeding for TBs. At least eight of the top ten had a TB parent.[/QUOTE]
There you go again putting words in my mouthâŠI never said there was no place for TBâs in sporthorse breeding. Read for comprehension.
when have you ever only seen 2 tbâs at an event ?
I know that they are almost irrelevant in todayâs sporthorse breeding. Who needs to know more ?
Bayhawk, you did say thisâat the top of this page. And this thread is about Sporthorse BREEDING, not performance. You are the one who brought up performance TBs, which is basically irrelevant to this thread.
I did edit my post on TBs at Wellington to add Sanskrit.
When I went over the scores, I didnât bother to look at the horses who didnât finish. There were 2 TBs in that group. One had one rail in Stadium; the other pulled 4 rails. So did an ISH. Of the five TBs in Stadium, 2 went clear, 2 had 1 rail and one had a very bad day. Heck, I can remember a Rolex when Kim Severson had 5 or 6 rails and so did Allison Springer. Both horses were ISHs.
Hereâs the breeding of the horses in the Wellington Eventing Showcase. I got all of the information from the FEI Database. Had a lot of trouble with Mr. Sydney Rocks, but it turns out heâs actually MR Sydney Rocks.
Trading AcesâISH
CyranoâZangersheide
Anthony PatchâTB
CambaldaâISH
Fernhill By NightâISH
Fernhill FugitiveâISH
Pancho VillaâUS Bred Selle Francais
Petite FlowerâTB
RF DemeterâOLD
Ballynoecastle RMâISH
Seams ReadyâOLD
Obos Oâreilly --ISH
Anna BellaâHOL
ArthurâUS Bred ISH
Urlanmore BeautyâISH
Beaulieuâs CayenneâCanadian bred Luxembourg WB
SanskritâTB
CzechmateâCzech WB
Foxwood HighâCanadian SH
MR Sydney RocksâWEST
Bellaney RockâISH
Clip ClopâISH
Rendezvous with CharlyâSATHU
HoudiniâTB
Proper TimingâTB
RF ScandalousâOLD
I admit pure TBs are getting scarce as henâs teeth in eventing, but itâs not that they can never compete. After all Clifton Promise won both Badminton and Burghley in the same year (even if he did have one title taken away for having given a contaminated supplement). The fact is that the rest of the eventing world is following the French and British event horse breeding model. That means mostly TB. When an event horse is 63/64ths TB (Herr Buttsâ horses) or has a TB parent, the TB is not irrelevant.
These threads are always so interesting and informative until vineyridge shows up with her passive aggressive defense of thoroughbreds, lack of reading comprehension with regards to othersâ posts, and lack of understanding that a horse that is n% thoroughbred is not a thoroughbred, and then grayarabpony shows up with her personal snipes. And then they both accuse Bayhawk of starting a fight.
Itâs like the movie Groundhog day, but without any humor whatsoever.
[QUOTE=Elles;8049042]
Good offspring of Favorit (after some generations):
Labrador by Langraf I
Rigoletto by Ramzes
Ramiro Z by Raimond[/QUOTE]
For example:
To get from Favorit to Ramiro Z, Ramzes x and Cottage Son xx were added to the mix.
To get from Ramiro Z (twice) to Lacky, Ladykiller xx, Rantzau xx, Sacramento Song xx, Waldenser xx, Furioso xx, Ultimate xx and Orange Peel xx were added to the mix.
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/356349
From Favorit to Rigoletto, Ramzes x was added.
From Rigoletto to M.Adermie 9, Ladykiller xx, Anblick xx (2x), more Ramzes (2x) x, Cottage Son xx (2x), Korenbleem xx and Abgar xx were added to the mix.
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/14150?levels=5
From Favorit to Labrador, Ramzes x, Anblick xx and Ladykiller xx were added.
From Labrador to Carracas, Cottage Son xx (2x), more Ramzes x (3x), Manometer xx, more Ladykiller xx, Sacramento Song xx, more Anblick xx and Der Loewe xx were added to the mix.
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/356196?levels=5
Other older type Holsteiners that can be found many times in todayâs Holsteiners and have been mixed with bloodhorses like those mentioned above:
Loretto http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=639697
Lorbeer http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=633958
Tobias http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=72114
First http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=642097
Elegant http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=736992
Achill http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=526526
Falb http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=705080
Cicero http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=230237
Ethelbert http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=85052
Landgraf http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=661449
Lord http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=169376
Kurassier http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=420454
Erbherr http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=484151
Heintze http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=186365
Vollmacht http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=382887
Adjudant http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=276161
Midas http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=72943
Hannibal http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=69404
Fregatte http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=582120
Todayâs example of a Holsteiner:
http://holsteiner-verband.de/upload/hengste/privathengste/Colore.JPG
http://holsteiner-verband.de/front_content.php?idart=7540
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10478733
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/465392 52,73%
Despite the âbloodâ that has been added you can still (or again?) see the traces of the older type Holsteiners like these ones, who can be found in the pedigree of Colore:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=536054 http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/613 XX/OX rate: 13,09%
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=118472
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/142 XX/OX rate: 6,84%
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=688020
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/761 XX/OX rate: 9,18%
However, this one had a TB sire:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=85052
Tobias was XX/OX rate: 26,56%
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/6571
Falb was XX/OX rate: 21,48%
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/12281
This Holsteiner was of a rather heavy type:
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/3944 XX/OX rate: 12,50%
His picture:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=408030&time=1398437539
Fanal can be found in Soleil: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=524903
dam of Corrado http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=298008
I think Elegant http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/6583 had a nice and modern type: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=736992&time=1398438369
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8049923]
These threads are always so interesting and informative until vineyridge shows up with her passive aggressive defense of thoroughbreds, lack of reading comprehension with regards to othersâ posts, and lack of understanding that a horse that is n% thoroughbred is not a thoroughbred, and then grayarabpony shows up with her personal snipes. And then they both accuse Bayhawk of starting a fight.
Itâs like the movie Groundhog day, but without any humor whatsoever.[/QUOTE]
WowâŠyou put into words exactly what happens every timeâŠLOL
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8049891]
Bayhawk, you did say thisâat the top of this page. And this thread is about Sporthorse BREEDING, not performance. You are the one who brought up performance TBs, which is basically irrelevant to this thread.
I did edit my post on TBs at Wellington to add Sanskrit.
When I went over the scores, I didnât bother to look at the horses who didnât finish. There were 2 TBs in that group. One had one rail in Stadium; the other pulled 4 rails. So did an ISH. Of the five TBs in Stadium, 2 went clear, 2 had 1 rail and one had a very bad day. Heck, I can remember a Rolex when Kim Severson had 5 or 6 rails and so did Allison Springer. Both horses were ISHs.
Hereâs the breeding of the horses in the Wellington Eventing Showcase. I got all of the information from the FEI Database. Had a lot of trouble with Mr. Sydney Rocks, but it turns out heâs actually MR Sydney Rocks.
Trading AcesâISH
CyranoâZangersheide
Anthony PatchâTB
CambaldaâISH
Fernhill By NightâISH
Fernhill FugitiveâISH
Pancho VillaâUS Bred Selle Francais
Petite FlowerâTB
RF DemeterâOLD
Ballynoecastle RMâISH
Seams ReadyâOLD
Obos Oâreilly --ISH
Anna BellaâHOL
ArthurâUS Bred ISH
Urlanmore BeautyâISH
Beaulieuâs CayenneâCanadian bred Luxembourg WB
SanskritâTB
CzechmateâCzech WB
Foxwood HighâCanadian SH
MR Sydney RocksâWEST
Bellaney RockâISH
Clip ClopâISH
Rendezvous with CharlyâSATHU
HoudiniâTB
Proper TimingâTB
RF ScandalousâOLD
I admit pure TBs are getting scarce as henâs teeth in eventing, but itâs not that they can never compete. After all Clifton Promise won both Badminton and Burghley in the same year (even if he did have one title taken away for having given a contaminated supplement). The fact is that the rest of the eventing world is following the French and British event horse breeding model. That means mostly TB. When an event horse is 63/64ths TB (Herr Buttsâ horses) or has a TB parent, the TB is not irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
Yes , this is what I said and it is most certainly trueâŠâalmost irrelevant in todays sporthorse breedingâ. I never said they didnât have a place , as their âplaceâ is secured in sporthorse breeding history.
There may be a day when they are needed again , but that day is not today.
