New decision in Holstein

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8049723]
I
It’s not my fault that you have been reduced to only being able to cite TB blood percentage , and not an actual TB.[/QUOTE]

So, I am not a jumper, nor have I ever bred for jumping - dressage is my thing, so forgive my lack of knowledge in your sport of choice. But I do understand math! So - if these horses who are doing so well are high % Tbred (with WB sire and dam, granted), and breeders shun the Tbred, then at some point, we start losing that high %, and the horses become more “Warmblood in type”. Wasn’t the blood (AA and TB) introduced exactly for that issue - to make a lighter, more sensitive, quicker, more sporty horse? And of course, to keep the genetic pool more open?

I will admit, TB is not my thing - I LIKE the heavier, old style horses, but I also totally get why there is more and more blood in the sport horse. So, again, if the breeders shun the TB (let my neighbors do it, I won’t), then what happens to the sport horses in the long run?

[halt]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8049923]
These threads are always so interesting and informative until vineyridge shows up with her passive aggressive defense of thoroughbreds, lack of reading comprehension with regards to others’ posts, and lack of understanding that a horse that is n% thoroughbred is not a thoroughbred, and then grayarabpony shows up with her personal snipes. And then they both accuse Bayhawk of starting a fight.

It’s like the movie Groundhog day, but without any humor whatsoever.[/QUOTE]

these threads are always so interesting until personal diatribe like your post (and bayhawk’s) show up, throw ad hominems and add nothing of value to the discussion.

i’m glad for holstein’s “new” decision – tb sires are important, and it does show in EV that it is highly beneficial to add a TB sire line to the mix every few generations. sure, some crosses result in a F1 that does not have the grandiose movement of a WB, but you see the importance in later crosses, not the immediate result.

[out_west]

Not a math major, nor a jumper breeder but: If you breed two horses with a certain percent blood, say 25% each, then the resulting foal will also be 25% blood. So it seems to me, you don’t have to keep adding new blood unless there is selection against it by the breeders, i.e., breeders not using the horses with a high percent blood.

[out_west]

I probably should have used a population example in my above post, not an individual example. If the population contains as a whole 10% blood, then unless there is selection bias against blood,or the introduction of others into the population, the population will continue to contain ~ 10% blood, though early after introduction it will be very unevenly distributed (ie some horses 25% and others 0%), but over time the distribution becomes more even.

[omare]

I thought the concern was that after so many generations even if you have 25 percent blood,being bred to 25 percent blood, the hybrid will revert back to the an older type-- but I am not a scientist -and I am not sure when type gets “stablized” so to speak or is no longer considered a hybrid?? Or what type would it revert back to if you were 25-40 percent blood? (When would it revert back to …xx type instead of heavier warmblood type?)

[out_west]

Very interesting question. Is the population reverting, and if so why? Again, talking about the population as a whole is different than discussing individuals. Also there is a difference between genotypes and phenotypes. In a closed population, if there is no selection bias, the % blood should remain the same. However, when blood is first introduced, some individuals will have 50% or more (100% in the newly introduced animals), and many 0%. Later (if no more blood is introduced) it will become a steady state of (for example) 10% depending on how much was introduced and the size of the population. So early on SOME individuals will really show the blood (50% or 25%individuals) but over time it will not show as much when it is 10% of their genetic material. Is this the cause for the “reversion”? Or, since there clearly is selection bias in populations that are deliberately bred, is the reversion due to selection against “blood”?

[vineyridge]

Do hybrids ever completely stabilize? TBs have been a more or less closed book since the GSB in 1798. Their major opening was the acceptance of US bred horses without pure GSB ancestry. Yet even with all TBs coming from a base ancestry of maybe 600 horses that has been well mixed, they show quite a lot of phenotypical difference after all these years. Look at Lonhro (http://sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Lonhro&x=22&y=16) and Tapit (http://sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Tapit&x=33&y=14) for example.

[out_west]

All animals that we selectively breed will not truly stabilize. We provide strong selection bias, and the environment provides some selection bias as well.

[Elles]

One for Vineyridge:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?pd=10529752

[omare]

Elles–How do ypu pull up the children from a mare family? Thanks!

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8049923]
These threads are always so interesting and informative until vineyridge shows up with her passive aggressive defense of thoroughbreds, lack of reading comprehension with regards to others’ posts, and lack of understanding that a horse that is n% thoroughbred is not a thoroughbred, and then grayarabpony shows up with her personal snipes. And then they both accuse Bayhawk of starting a fight.

It’s like the movie Groundhog day, but without any humor whatsoever.[/QUOTE]

Many things bayhawk has posted over the years have actually kind of been laughable. But I guess you and he don’t know what you don’t know.

Poor, poor bayhawk. His behavior isn’t his fault. Insert playing violin icon here.

You haven’t added anything of value to the thread, except to snipe at viney and me. Hypocritical much?

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=omare;8050651]
I thought the concern was that after so many generations even if you have 25 percent blood,being bred to 25 percent blood, the hybrid will revert back to the an older type-- but I am not a scientist -and I am not sure when type gets “stablized” so to speak or is no longer considered a hybrid?? Or what type would it revert back to if you were 25-40 percent blood? (When would it revert back to …xx type instead of heavier warmblood type?)[/QUOTE]

Add that to the fact that we select the traits and type that we find desirable. People think Tb’s are something distinct from the Wb’s but think of genes in terms of building blocks that fit together. I do not think the Wb will spontaneously revert to an old type, as we do not choose those older types for breeding. No more than Tb’s will revert to Arabs.
If the Tb has something to add, it is something that is needed from them now and not something they once gave, that needs to be reinforced. Unless you have an older type of horse now.
Every breed has started with a few individuals from another group that are selected for certain traits. If anything we need outside blood because of the stallion selection process and the narrowing of “building blocks” that happens. It increases quality but it also decreased the variety.

Think of how Tb’s originated 300 years ago and how many Arab stallions influenced the local mares. And when they closed the books. From that small population you see a variety of Tb types and purposes just from selective breeding.

[D_BaldStockings]

Breeding for performance doesn’t equal breeding for ‘looks’. This is why TBs can come in many shapes and sizes (although the short 2 yr old races are tending to skew the looks to heavier muscling and a longer hip lever and usually longer neck)

take a look at real performance bred animals like cattle and you will see very ‘level’ herds and populations, despite the varied original stock.

++

It would be interesting to hear exactly what factors are behind the desire of the powers that be to open the Holsteiner books to so many sires:
are they trying to ‘up’ registration numbers and membership?
Regretting excluding horses that became approved in other registries and proved themselves as sires?
Concerned about a shrinking gene pool and more inbreeding?
or just looking at history and saying ‘It must be time for another infusion?’

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8051011]
It would be interesting to hear exactly what factors are behind the desire of the powers that be to open the Holsteiner books to so many sires… [/QUOTE]

It is exactly as Bayhawk stated:

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8046953]They [the Holsteiner Verband or “HV”] just made it easier for those breeders wishing to use a TB Stallion that wasn’t approved by the HV, just like they made it easier for those breeders wishing to use a 1.60 meter competition stallion not approved by the HV.

The rule was that these stallions had to come to Elmshorn to be approved and now they are relying on and working with other registries that have already approved these stallions. One still has to submit an application to the Verband for approval before breeding.

The rule in my opinion was always un-productive to ask a stallion owner to bring the stallion all the way to Elmshorn to run around the indoor for 20 minutes.[/QUOTE]

And in the scheme of things, it’s not “so many sires…”

[JB]

A breed will never stabilize until they are selected for a specific look, or a specific performance. TBs aren’t just bred for racing, they are bred for sprints vs distance, turf vs dirt.

I don’t know for sure but I would imagine that the best sprinters look a lot more alike than a mix of the sprinters and distance horses.

Cutting-bred horses all have a very similar look to them, because their physical attributes were selected for to do a particular job very well. Reiners look a bit different from that. The HUS horse looks very different from that. Yet all are registered as QHs.

To that end, F1s can’t ever stabilize if you’re picking from parents’ breeds that aren’t stable.

Maybe the closest I’ve seen to a “stable” F1 cross is when a Morgan is involved. Somehow, whether crossed with a draft or Friesian or Arab or TB or QH, they all have that look that makes you go “must be part Morgan at least”.

[D_BaldStockings]

so, would stallions like these be possibles?

http://www.pomponioranchstallions.com/uno-de-laubry/

http://belgianwarmblood.com/backend/News/news_upload/Chill_R_Z_157.pdf

Not TB but 1.6m stallions.
after a 2 second search.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8051053]
It is exactly as Bayhawk stated:

And in the scheme of things, it’s not “so many sires…”[/QUOTE]

This is correct in that it is not so many sires.

Firth of Lorne (For Pleasure / Stakkato / Calypso II) is an example of a Hannoverian Stallion that has the required 3 placings at 1.60 meter. If I want to bred him to one of my Holsteiner mares , then I can.

If I wished to use a TB Stallion approved by the BWP…then I could.

All they did was relax their own rules about bringing a stallion to them before it could be approved.

We can now use Hyperion Stud’s Imothep. Do you think Hyperion Stud would have ever shipped Imothep to Elmshorn for the Verband to look at him for 20 minutes ? Of course not , so the relaxing of their own rule is smart in my opinion.

[drkarins]

Having had the pleasure of visiting Holstein regularly, including twice this summer, it does seem that as the older breeders retire the younger generations are coming along and asking for more flexibility/freedom such as using outside stallions (ie non-HV approved). The performance based criteria satisfies their needs as it makes a horse more attractive to buyers, especially in the international scene. There are probably other reasons but ultimately, the younger generation wants to sell top sport horses and recognized that buyers want a name and proven talent.

It makes sense to me. Before this rule, one could not use London on a Holsteiner mare and have the foal approved. Having seen a London baby out of a Hosteiner mare at the farm of parents to a famous German GP rider, seemed ridiculous that said foal was not eligible to be registered Holsteiner.

As other posters have stated, many reasons to bring in “outside” blood. It will be years before it can be assessed what these changes will do to the Holsteiner breed but I suspect the breeders will be happier in any event.

Selfishly, I hope some of this “openness” translates into more stallions available frozen here in the USA. And I suspect Dr Nissen would be happier still if I renewed by Holsteiner Verband membership as the numbers have not been making the HV particularly happy.

[Blume_Farm]

This also is not just a debate with the HV. Certain other WB registries such as GOV and Dutch are very open with stallion approval. It appears they have had great success. I think some of the other registries that have had membership numbers decrease and complaints by said members that they want to breed to such-and-such stallion but can’t has finally taken some hold.

It is a double edges sword. I think for experienced breeders having that selection is beneficial. It allows them a little more freedom with educated breeding choices. However, for new breeders having an organization, a Verband, to help narrow down stallion selection and keep some hold on the reins of the breeding population is beneficial. Also, too much acceptance may start to allow young flavor-of-the-day stallions too many mares.

[Elles]

[QUOTE=omare;8050890]
Elles–How do ypu pull up the children from a mare family? Thanks![/QUOTE]

The best way is actually to use Horsetelex because in sport horse data you can only look at two generations while Horsetelex lets you look at 9 generations. Just look at offspring (nakomelingen) and chose the number of generations (Kies aantal generaties:).
A few examples: http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/6911
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/163