New decision in Holstein

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8082031]
Also, between two equivalent offers for a sport horse, the europeans will tend to sell the sport horse so it stays in Europe. In America, the tracking of the results is not as good as in Europe, and chances are the horse will change name and disappear rapidly. If it stays in Europe, it will be easier for the seller/breeder to follow the results and continue to build on the horse’s success.

It seems to be the opposit with broodmares. If a breeder is willing to, or has to, sell a very good mare, he will prefer to sell it as far as possible rather than having another breeder breeding with his bloodlines in his backyard.[/QUOTE]

I suppose unless you are selling to a very big name rider/trainer in the US who has international aspirations. I doubt that Steffen Peters has trouble getting people to sell him nice horses

[zipperfoot]

Is there any kind of objective data on the effect of a TB sire/dam on the jumping ability of the offspring?

Not interested in anecdotal (“Breeder XXX says using TBs is detrimental to jumping ability.”) or subjective analysis (“I can tell by watching the foal move…”) or pronouncements based on whether the offspring appears on any standings lists.

Probably no objective data due to the nature of horse breeding and the number of variables involved, but the results sure would be interesting.

[Elles]

But in Holland you often just drive your mare to the place where the stallion gets collected and the semen therefore has recently been collected before the mare gets inseminated. Even if it is sent to the mare owner it only is a short time in between collection and insemination.
I often read that with a number of mares it is not easy to inseminate them with semen that came from a long distance away.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8081924]
Sorry if I am misunderstanding your questions.

Europeans sell semen from their best sires and keep the best mares. That way they can breed the best, keep the best and sell the rest. The best performance horses are up for the highest bidder. I think very few people could afford to buy the best producers outright; they are worth years of expensive offspring. The best way the excellent producers could be had is if a breeder underestimates the value of a mare as a producer.[/QUOTE]

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8081912]
What was his highest competition level? From this website it is 1.45m? http://americantrakehner.com/stallions/hirtentanz.asp If I’m adding blood I’d be looking for a quicker canter step than he has.

I am NOT saying he isn’t a very nice stallion; he is. He isn’t my idea of what I’m thinking of when adding blood.
To be honest I’d be looking at TB and SF blood.[/QUOTE]

The show results on the ATA site are from 2010. He has done a lot since then. I’ve read somewhere (but not taking the time to look it up) that he has done the 1.6 successfully.

JMO, of course, but this stallion would load the dice in favor of producing a jumper far more than a TB stallion. Multiple generations of Sport Horses successful at the highest levels. (His sire is coming to the World Cup in Dressage) He is also Approved by most of the Euro Verbands including Holstein.

We have a very nice Meisterwind daughter out of the mare Aloha by Hansel, mother line Abiza, and Hirtentanz is looking like a pretty good baby daddy in the future.

[omare]

"Is there any kind of objective data on the effect of a TB sire/dam on the jumping ability of the offspring?
" I thought the problem was–there is among certain breed books objective evidence for stallions/sires- perhaps based on mare(daughters of xx stallions) performance testing etc. --it is where many of the low scores for the jumping index is gathered for xx stallions. I did wonder though if the blooded method of jumping-- more quick than power–more speed less bascule–might be scored less generously–as that is not the idea “jump” but might still get the job done?

[omare]

The trakehners have the same pros and cons to overcome as the xx I think-- as for many years trakehners were not generally bred with jumping in mind unless you looked to the Eastern Europe or Russia.
(And try having a stallion that is both trak and xx that jumps- 1.6m – an oxymoron in most books! Two breeds nobody wants to cross too for jump! Yikes)

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=omare;8082154]
"Is there any kind of objective data on the effect of a TB sire/dam on the jumping ability of the offspring?
" I thought the problem was–there is among certain breed books objective evidence for stallions/sires- perhaps based on mare(daughters of xx stallions) performance testing etc. --it is where many of the low scores for the jumping index is gathered for xx stallions. I did wonder though if the blooded method of jumping-- more quick than power–more speed less bascule–might be scored less generously–as that is not the idea “jump” but might still get the job done?[/QUOTE]

How did the “ideal jump” come about? Aren’t there some cases where a lot of bascule and a back cracking jump isn’t necessarily the best way to do things?

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Elles;8082104]
But in Holland you often just drive your mare to the place where the stallion gets collected and the semen therefore has recently been collected before the mare gets inseminated. Even if it is sent to the mare owner it only is a short time in between collection and insemination.
I often read that with a number of mares it is not easy to inseminate them with semen that came from a long distance away.[/QUOTE]

Breeders here very often use stallions from Europe.

There was a stallion expo for jumping and dressage here a few years ago. My impression was that many of those stallions needed to be gelded. Some were very good – Don Principe for example is a beautiful and talented dressage stallion – but honestly I felt they were in the minority. But even Don Principe’s owner has in the past had a hard time getting breeders here to use him. (I think he will end up with a good legacy because his owner has done everything in her power to promote him).

Many of the stallions sold here have not been top rate, so mare owners tend to buy semen from abroad and view domestic stallions with some suspicion. In any case the US is such a large country that you can’t often just trailer your mare to the stallion anyway. The mare could be in a trailer for days one way of the trip.

I’m sure this post will raise some hackles; please take note of the words “often”, “tends”, and “many”.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8082129]
The show results on the ATA site are from 2010. He has done a lot since then. I’ve read somewhere (but not taking the time to look it up) that he has done the 1.6 successfully.

JMO, of course, but this stallion would load the dice in favor of producing a jumper far more than a TB stallion. Multiple generations of Sport Horses successful at the highest levels. (His sire is coming to the World Cup in Dressage) He is also Approved by most of the Euro Verbands including Holstein.

We have a very nice Meisterwind daughter out of the mare Aloha by Hansel, mother line Abiza, and Hirtentanz is looking like a pretty good baby daddy in the future.[/QUOTE]

He’s mostly from dressage lines though. I would think that would give a lot of jumper breeders pause. And like I said he doesn’t display some of the qualities I would look for if adding blood.

In any case someone needs to update the info on the ATA site. It is the first thing that comes up when you google “Hirtentanz stallion”.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8082216]
How did the “ideal jump” come about? Aren’t there some cases where a lot of bascule and a back cracking jump isn’t necessarily the best way to do things?[/QUOTE]

Two sources for the round jump among Holsteiners are Cor de la Bryere and Ladykiller.

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/08/ladykiller-xx/

In his review of the ‘Holstein Upgraders’ in Z Magazine, August/September 2004, Jasper Nissen has this to say of Ladykiller as a stallion:

“Passed on a good temperament, although sometimes a little hot. In spite of his early injuries he did not pass on any defects in the limbs. Produced numerous first class broodmares and licensed stallions, including the top progenitors, Landgraf I and Lord. Founded his own wide-branched stallion line. Ladykiller xx passed on specific characteristics, such as a fine head, an often light brown colour with white on the legs, sometimes less coupled loins, good, powerful and correct bones, very good jumping qualities (lots of guts, power, fine technique and rounded back over the fence), excellent basic gaits and on average, good sized products; his chestnuts were often a bit more noble than his bay offspring.”

http://www.holsteiner-verband.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=39&lang=2

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/08/dr-thomas-nissen-the-holstein-future/

There are TBs who jump with a great bascule. I used to own and ride one.
A round jump is the ideal for show jumping although there are many great show jumpers with less than picture perfect form. The jumps are so big that often the horse is forced to flatten out a bit to get over the width of the jumps.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8081924]
Sorry if I am misunderstanding your questions.

Europeans sell semen from their best sires and keep the best mares. That way they can breed the best, keep the best and sell the rest. The best performance horses are up for the highest bidder. I think very few people could afford to buy the best producers outright; they are worth years of expensive offspring. The best way the excellent producers could be had is if a breeder underestimates the value of a mare as a producer.[/QUOTE]

This statement is nothing short of outlandish and is a crystal clear indicator of your lack of knowledge. What is your deal ? Do you have to be heard even when you’re dead wrong ? Unbelievable !

The breeders do sell their best and they sell them often. Ask anyone that knows anything about Europe and they will tell you this is the case even to the point of the Verbands imploring with their breeders to stop selling their best mares.

The breeders have to make money…and that often requires selling their best. You can certainly attain their best if you have the relationships.

[Mistysmom]

I agree with Bayhawk. Breeders need to make money and will definitely sell their best to people they know and trust. Of course, the price has to be right too :-).

[grayarabpony]

To add to what I posted earlier: http://users.stlcc.edu/nfuller/Tariq/Ramzes.html

"In Holstein, Ramzes produced five licensed sons, including Raimond and Rigoletto. Rigoletto was sold to The Netherlands where he was an enormously successful sire of showjumpers. Raimond was the sire of Ramiro, arguably the most successful jumping sire of them all.
In his ‘Stallion Book of the Holsteiner Warmblood Breed’, Dr Dietrich Rossow has this to say about Ramzes and his influence:
‘Ramzes was a medium framed, harmonious stallion with a very well set on neck, which was heavily muscled on the underside. He had a heavy poll, good width and depth of body and clean legs which were very good behind and light boned in front. His head was plain… In general it can be said that his Holsteiner offspring lacked size and were too fine… In conclusion it can be said that Ramzes had a positive effect on the old Holsteiner type. He sired a huge number of beautiful, supple riding horses. He decisively improved on the old, tremendous but high headed, flat backed jumping form. Doubtless because of his gaits, he produced hardly any dressage horses in Holstein. His offspring’s heads are not always the most beautiful.’
In his history of the breed: ‘The Holsteiner Horse’, Romedio Graf von Thun-Hohenstein, sums up the influence of Ramzes:
‘The marvelously positive results were doubtless due to the large percentage of Thoroughbred blood carried by Ramzes himself… Ramzes influence in Holstein seems to have achieved its greatest importance with the whole list of first class approved broodmares which carry his blood. On his dam’s side, Ramzes carried a great deal of Amurath blood. However his offspring did not show any Amurath characteristics. This is probably due to the large percentage of Thoroughbred blood. The hereditary Amurath tendency to produce pacing, which did not necessarily nulify jumping ability as seen in the Argram line of the Hanoverian breed, never occurred in Holstein.’ "

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8082453]
This statement is nothing short of outlandish and is a crystal clear indicator of your lack of knowledge. What is your deal ? Do you have to be heard even when you’re dead wrong ? Unbelievable !

The breeders do sell their best and they sell them often. Ask anyone that knows anything about Europe and they will tell you this is the case even to the point of the Verbands imploring with their breeders to stop selling their best mares.

The breeders have to make money…and that often requires selling their best. You can certainly attain their best if you have the relationships.[/QUOTE]

To think that many breeders in Europe are selling their best producers is ridiculous, unless they just want to get out of breeding. If they can make several hundred thousand from one young horse, there’s no financial incentive to sell the dam.

Anyway, where are the top jumpers bred in America again? Where are the top competition horses you’ve bred, bayhawk?

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8081693]
I don’t think I’ve ever run into someone so against the TB…It would be easier to respect some of your thoughtsbuf you werent continually bashing the TB. Why can’t you just state your opinion and be done with it instead of taking every opportunity to bash that breed?[/QUOTE]

Bayhawk has nothing against TBs in sport and I think you’re taking his comments the wrong way, Snicklefritz. Given a scopey elastic TB, he would be the first to call it so. Pull out the breeding component and he is much more neutral, IMO, about breed and critical instead of conformation/temperament. He has no issues with TBs in sport, and I’ve had conversations IRL with him about my TB, about whom he’s been nothing but kind and complimentary (though yes, mindful of his weaknesses). Recognizing a good horse is much easier in some ways than producing one.

His point (IMO) relates to what TBs can (or can’t) bring to the breeding shed. That’s a totally different discussion - which I’m not sure everyone here seems to understand. Much of what he posts (along with Cumano and DownYonder and stoicfish and many others who have been attacked on this thread) is reactive in nature to the blind insistence that TBs ARE THE BEST AT EVERYTHING!!! And TBs are the best show jumpers because they were 40 years ago!!! People seem to feel that the last 40 years of selectively breeding WBs strictly for the jumper ring and breeding TBs strictly for racing has had no effect on the animals in front of us today. But even Bayhawk has pointed out that TBs are a valuable part of the heritage of the modern day WB and that they have brought positive traits to the Holsteiner. But how can ANYONE say that a breed that’s been bred for other traits (racing) is as good or better than a breed that’s been bred strictly to jump??? While I might serve it differently than calling them “TB jihadists,” I totally agree that there are a handful of rabid TB fans who cannot accept that the TB as a breed today is different than the TB of the 60s/70s/80s.

And supershorty and I have chatted about how people seem to not understand HOW the courses are completely different than they were back in the day (totally different from when I did my first GP back in 90 or 91, in fact). Back in the day they made the courses difficult via sheer size. The jumps were relatively solid with maybe a couple of flat-cup jumps thrown in here and there and the tracks were typically galloping tracks without a lot of related distances (combinations aside). Today the courses are delicate and extremely technical with lots of jumps out of short turns and closely related (and often set on a 1/2 stride) distances. Bayhawk pointed out that the million dollar classes at Thermal & Ocala were “TB type” classes of gallop and jump, but I have to disagree with him there and would say that there were still a lot of technical changes of pace required throughout the courses that would have made it tough for a “gallop horse.”

I’ve said it a hundred times and I’ll say it again, I love TBs and I think mine has the heart of a lion. But if I could infuse his personality and heart into the body of a WB bred to do this sport I would do it in a heartbeat. I am making him do things his body is not made to do. Collect to the base of a 1.50m x 1.60m oxer? He’s a TB, he wants to gallop it and leave for it a bit flat. People were pointing out steeplechasers who have that same flat jump. Well guess what happens when you jump 1cm (never mind 20cm) too low to the front rail of an oxer? You’re out of the money. Done. A 4-fault score can place you anywhere from the bottom of the top ten down through 30th or 40th place…well out of the money and out of people’s minds. Never mind that the horse navigated and cleared 15 other huge obstacles cleanly.

Where I feel like people are missing the point of this conversation from a breeding context is in the understanding that there are 2 levels of horses. 1) Horses who can jump around a 1.40m, 1.50m, or 1.60m course and make it through the timers, and 2) Horses who can jump around that size AND go clean AND win (and add in the word consistently to narrow it even further). There’s a difference even between the bottom horses of the million dollar classes (who are still the best of the best relative to the jumping population) and Flexible or Rothschild or Chill R Z or many of the other known entities (who still don’t always come out on top). And THAT’S what people are breeding for. The freak of nature horse who clears a gigantic jump when it seems otherwise impossible. The ones who go clean despite a bobble here or there.

I think many, many TBs could probably make it through the finish timers of an average GP. But those who can do it without a rail while going around courses DESIGNED to cause rails and problems (because remember, the course designers are trying to eliminate all but the top 8-12 of an often 60+ horse class consisting of horses who are all capable of jumping around clear) is a whole 'nother story.

And if I’m breeding for that freak of nature jumper, where am I going to put my money? Unlikely that you’d pick the TB for which there’s no jumping history (even if the horse in front of you is good). Much easier and safer to rely on a horse who has 1.60m after 1.60m jumper in his or her background. Certainly seems like it would improve the odds, no?

Again, this is a very different type of analysis than simply evaluating the horse in front of you. No one at any point has argued the fact that there are GREAT TBs out there. And I’ve said over and over again that while I love my guy he certainly wasn’t bred to jump and he’s one of those odd anomalies that I wouldn’t want to try to breed (he certainly wasn’t what the breeder wanted or expected).

[grayarabpony]

I’m not quoting your massive post PNWjumper but I don’t need an interpreter to read Bayhawk’s posts, thanks. He’s not some poor misunderstood soul.

I’ll quote this part though

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;8082544]

“His point (IMO) relates to what TBs can (or can’t) bring to the breeding shed. That’s a totally different discussion - which I’m not sure everyone here seems to understand. Much of what he posts (along with Cumano and DownYonder and stoicfish and many others who have been attacked on this thread) is reactive in nature to the blind insistence that TBs ARE THE BEST AT EVERYTHING!!! And TBs are the best show jumpers because they were 40 years ago!!!” [/QUOTE]

and flat out say that it is inaccurate. Actually the people you say have been attacked are doing most of the attacking. There are many “inaccuracies” that have been posted by them (believe me or not, I don’t care). Just put Cumano back on ignore yesterday where he or she will stay after C. accused me of saying something I didn’t say at all.

As far as the blind insistence that TBs are the best at everything (with all caps and several exclamation points!!!), that’s not true either. Some of us treasure the qualities that the TB can bring to the modern sporthorse. I’ve probably said this before, my horse is 78% blood and I wish he had more TB traits.

So it’d be great if you’d read posts for actual meaning before posting one of your super lengthy rants. Btw, I think you meant TBs were winning top classes 20-25 years ago, not 40. I think you’re also forgetting that these “fluke” TBs you’re talking about are actually often not flukes at all, but full of lines that have produced top jumpers in the past. I don’t remember your horse’s pedigree but I recall looking at supershorty’s horse’s pedigree and thinking that I am not surprised she is a good jumper.

Good luck with your horses. I’m not going to bother to read your posts here anymore though.

[Cumano]

PNWjumper, How I would love to be able to be as clear and concise as you are!

[grayarabpony]

Oh and btw, PNWjumper, congratulations on your TB’s successes. He sounds like a very good jumper but not a top one. Here’s the thing though; your warmbloods may or may not achieve or surpass what he has accomplished, because the majority cannot. Only a small minority can. The other thing to ponder is, will your warmbloods have the same heart and incentive that your TB has?

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=omare;8082154]
"Is there any kind of objective data on the effect of a TB sire/dam on the jumping ability of the offspring? "
The answer to your question is “no”
But you can look at the the WBFSH’s rankings, I went until the horse ranked number 300, and I couldn’t find a TB sire and and only a couple of TB as dam sire. http://www.wbfsh.org/files/September_Jumping_horse_final.pdf
It’s also due to the small number of TB sire used by the breeders around the world, which in turn is probably due to their observation of the low jumping quality of the F1’s.
I’m not a breeder but I buy horses at age 3 with a very good success rate and I must say that during the last 25 years the TB stallions did not produce top performers with any consistency.
Breeders acknowledge the fact that TB of today are bred for speed, precocity and no concern for soundness because the vast majority of TBs stop performing at age 3.

[supershorty628]

Interestingly, I had the same observation as Bayhawk when I watched the Thermal million dollar class - it struck me as totally my mare’s type of course.

It’s really easy to look back at videos of the TBs back in the day and try to use them as examples of high performance animals that would do really well today - because they were successful for that type of course. But, to be honest, that’s not the type of course that you see much today.

Today’s courses are for a much more specialized animal that can get right to the base of a jump, curl around it, and power over it. My mare is very similar to PNWJumper’s guy - she can jump a huge fence all day long, but she will always prefer to leave from the gap, and teaching her to be able to jump from the base was a long and difficult process, which I wasn’t totally successful in. Even now, I can feel like I’m getting her to the jump deep, but when you look at her hoof prints, she leaves from the same gap every time (you could argue that this is due to a lack of skill on my part, I guess). I don’t do the huge classes, but I suspect if I did, we could have issues with rails at very upright, wide oxers.

You’d be hard-pressed to find people who are more enamored with their TBs than PNWJumper and I are - but I think we both know their limitations and feel them when we’re on course. I just don’t think that the TB today is the BEST at everything. There are, of course, some exceptional animals out there, but for today’s course designs, those horses are anomalies.

I don’t know Bayhawk personally, but I do know what he does and really respect that. If I were looking for another horse to do the big classes with, I would welcome his input (and would probably seek him out for advice… if that would be okay) because as much as I love a TB, statistically, the chances of getting a freak of nature jumper that is suitable for today’s GP ring are much greater if I go with a horse that is specialized for that purpose.

I don’t think anyone is saying that TBs are awful horses - they’re great. But they can’t be the best at everything, and it’s not reasonable to expect them to be or to expect people at the top of the sport to use them when today’s courses require a specialist type of animal that in a TB, is unusual, while in a warmblood, is much more common.

Just my humble opinion.