New decision in Holstein

[omare]

“They do not need to heed your statement of caution because it is THEIR motherline , and they will know exactly what Fragonard xx has brought to the table, or , taken from the table.”

Obviously I was not making any recommendations to any holsteiner breeder–(how would I do that anyway?) I said I can see why breeders generally are not keen on xx if he is an example of the best xx being offered up and stated that “I” would be cautious to breed to him. I do not think he is a superior representation of the xx. I am sure your breeders have eyes and they know what they need.

If some MOs need xx blood for the mare and her family–and he is an example of what they are being offered–and they need what the xx brings to the table – I can see the change in policy and why they are being allowed to breed to xx stallions approved by other books.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=omare;8112896]
“They do not need to heed your statement of caution because it is THEIR motherline , and they will know exactly what Fragonard xx has brought to the table, or , taken from the table.”

Obviously I was not making any recommendations to any holsteiner breeder–(how would I do that anyway?) I said I can see why breeders generally are not keen on xx if he is an example of the best xx being offered up and stated that “I” would be cautious to breed to him. I do not think he is a superior representation of the xx. I am sure your breeders have eyes and they know what they need.

If some MOs need xx blood for the mare and her family–and he is an example of what they are being offered–and they need what the xx brings to the table – I can see the change in policy and why they are being allowed to breed to xx stallions approved by other books.[/QUOTE]

IIRC, Fragonard xx is not the only xx stallion being offered. There are a few others who may suit your taste better.

There is also Armand xx,., and wasn’t Favoritas XX at one point?

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8112175]
I would disagree with this particular statement, and would hate for someone not familiar with racebred-TBs to believe this. It feeds into the whole ‘bygone era’, ‘the world as we know it is gone’, rose-colored glasses, nostalgia, etc etc.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I would be willing to bet there are more ways to drug a horse today and get away with it than it was 30 yrs ago.

And we both know there is no drug in the world that can make a horse run fast…certainly not fast enough to set records…if they don’t have the ability.

But nonetheless, the stats don’t lie. Period.

Racehorses are bred to run fast. It’s a very simple sport. So if today’s TBs are just as fast, there should be the records to show it.

And they aren’t there. Yes, they need to stay sound. Yes, they need to be “hard-knocking”. But they also need to be fast.

And if you look at the records in all categories (dirt, turf), most of the records were set some time ago. It’s not my opinion, it’s fact.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;8112597]
Agree - it must have been quite something for his owner, to have such a renowned horse to foxhunt![/QUOTE]

Are you kidding?! HIs owner/breeder was Mrs. DuPont, one of the richest women in the world. Kelso was probably pretty impressed to have such a renowned person riding him!:winkgrin:

As for his jumping technique – well, maybe she just hilltopped? And that is about as clear an illustration of how TB ‘kill the jump’ as you can ask for.

But, man…he sure was a serious racehorse. One for the ages, that’s for sure.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8112906]
Actually, I would be willing to bet there are more ways to drug a horse today and get away with it than it was 30 yrs ago.

But nonetheless, the stats don’t lie. Period.

Racehorses are bred to run fast. It’s a very simple sport. So if today’s TBs are just as fast, there should be the records to show it.

And they aren’t there. Yes, they need to stay sound. Yes, they need to be “hard-knocking”. But they also need to be fast.

And if you look at the records in all categories (dirt, turf), most of the records were set some time ago. It’s not my opinion, it’s fact.[/QUOTE]

There have been roughly 3 million +/- foals born since the last Triple Crown winner.

That same # of foals hasn’t produced but a miniscule amount of sporthorses either.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=omare;8112896]
“They do not need to heed your statement of caution because it is THEIR motherline , and they will know exactly what Fragonard xx has brought to the table, or , taken from the table.”

Obviously I was not making any recommendations to any holsteiner breeder–(how would I do that anyway?) I said I can see why breeders generally are not keen on xx if he is an example of the best xx being offered up and stated that “I” would be cautious to breed to him. I do not think he is a superior representation of the xx. I am sure your breeders have eyes and they know what they need.

If some MOs need xx blood for the mare and her family–and he is an example of what they are being offered–and they need what the xx brings to the table – I can see the change in policy and why they are being allowed to breed to xx stallions approved by other books.[/QUOTE]

No one said he was the best being offered. He just appears to be the one they are most interested in.

[omare]

He does have a lovely pedigree–but I know that does not count for anything.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8112906]
Actually, I would be willing to bet there are more ways to drug a horse today and get away with it than it was 30 yrs ago.

And we both know there is no drug in the world that can make a horse run fast…certainly not fast enough to set records…if they don’t have the ability.

But nonetheless, the stats don’t lie. Period.

Racehorses are bred to run fast. It’s a very simple sport. So if today’s TBs are just as fast, there should be the records to show it.

And they aren’t there. Yes, they need to stay sound. Yes, they need to be “hard-knocking”. But they also need to be fast.

And if you look at the records in all categories (dirt, turf), most of the records were set some time ago. It’s not my opinion, it’s fact.[/QUOTE]

Kyzteke, you are forgetting one thing… Of course they were breaking/setting records back then… because before them, there weren’t any records to set or break in the US Again, true brilliance is ALWAYS a minority, in any breed… I am sure those records will be broken again, but it is unrealistic to expect them to be bested every day.

It really shows how little you know about TBs when you lament to the bygone era… Have you SEEN what the founding American TBs looked like? Do you really think those stallions were better than the stallions of today? Take a look at Mr Prospector… Then go and look at Petionville.

the illustrious Mr.P:
http://www.horsecollaborative.com/wp-content/uploads/mr_prospector.jpg

Petionville:
http://i.bloodhorse.com/sroimages//medium/0000133418_1.jpg

This really warrants its own discussion, but part of the reason you don’t see horses pushed “go-for-broke” anymore is because of syndication – more hands in the pot, more $$ involved – it’s better for a syndication’s wallet to run and quit a horse and collect his $tud fee$ after a successful run than push him until he breaks. IME, it seems more owners are more cautious with what they do these days regarding running their horses. I am not the end-all/expert to racing, but this is just what I have noted.

Why don’t you assert your claim in the racing forum? It’d be interesting to see what the experts say.

[Jackie_Cochran]

In defense of Kelso–

The fundraiser was at off-season Laurel Racetrack in MD. There were no other horses running around, but I am sure that Kelso looked at the track and probably thought–track–run fast, run far, and run flat, NOT jump over jumps.

I suspect that when he was introduced to actual hunting that Kelso may have seen the sense of jumping over the fences. Maryland hunt country generally is NOT flat, Kelso was reputed to have some brains, and I am sure he saw it was a whole different game, one that he could play at quite well. After all, Mrs. DuPont was wealthy enough to buy any horse she wanted to for her fox-hunter. Since she hunted him for years I presume he was more than adequate for her needs jumping cross country.

As a further thought, this was long before the days when adults wore approved jump helmets and body protectors when jumping. I am sure that safety considerations were played at least a minor role in changing him from a flat race horse to a hunter–especially the ability to get out of a tricky situation calling for great jumping ability.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8112931]
Kyzteke, you are forgetting one thing… Of course they were breaking/setting records back then… because before them, there weren’t any records to set or break in the US

It really shows how little you know about TBs when you lament to the bygone era… [/QUOTE]

What are you talking about? There has been organized TB racing in America since the 1700’s. Belmont opened in 1905.

As for what I know about TBs & TB racing, please check my post on this thread regarding my experience on the track. I will modestly suggest it is sufficient for my opinion to carry some weight.

As for what current stallions look like vs stallion of “yesteryear” – again, what is your point? Looks have very little to do with how fast they can run.

And I’m not sure what you mean by “founding TBs”. I AM old, but not old enough to have seen Eclipse (1764) or Herod (1758) in the flesh. These two (along with Matchem) are considered the foundation stallions of the modern TB.

So I’m not sure what you are talking about. And I would be willing to bet that plenty of the people on the Racing Forum would agree with me, not that it matters either way.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8112969]
What are you talking about? There has been organized TB racing in America since the 1700’s. Belmont opened in 1905.

As for what I know about TBs & TB racing, please check my post on this thread regarding my experience on the track. I will modestly suggest it is sufficient for my opinion to carry some weight.

As for what current stallions look like vs stallion of “yesteryear” – again, what is your point? Looks have very little to do with how fast they can run.

And I’m not sure what you mean by “founding TBs”. I AM old, but not old enough to have seen Eclipse (1764) or Herod (1758) in the flesh. These two (along with Matchem) are considered the foundation stallions of the modern TB.

So I’m not sure what you are talking about. And I would be willing to bet that plenty of the people on the Racing Forum would agree with me, not that it matters either way.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t say Founding TBs, I said founding American TBs. You know, the ones you think were way better than the ones produced today.

I don’t have an axe to grind either way about the WB vs TB debate, and I find the assertion that a common racebred TB could compete with a specialized/sport-bred WB somewhat ridiculous, but I do disagree with you entirely that the TBs of yesteryear are so much better than the TBs today. You may have sufficient knowledge and you are entitled to your own opinion, but so am I.

[Equilibrium]

I’ve been gone 3 years and the same argument exists. Use a TB mare if you want. Put them with the right people and if they’re good enough they’re good enough.

Terri

[omare]

Ha my bad it was fragonard’s son shown jumping with knees pointed down over most of the fences --we will blame the mother! And he was a champion hurdler so he had more scope than was shown and would not have survived jumping with knees down-- quick reflexes define the hurdler.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8112982]
I didn’t say Founding TBs, I said founding American TBs. You know, the ones you think were way better than the ones produced today. [/QUOTE]

Still not following – the “founding American TBs” were back in the late 1700’s.

Of course we can all have opinions. But the stats are fairly clear and THEIR “opinion” is that the TBs produced in the last 20-30 years by and large cannot run as fast or as long as those who came before them.

Now, it could be the trainers…maybe we’re just not breeding good trainers anymore…

[Kyzteke]

Ramzes – Bayhawk (or others) what made breeders want to use him?

Somewhat OT, but Ramzes was an AA, so…

I think Ramzes was brought to Germany in the early '60’s, right?

So what made mare owners want to use him? He was nice enough to look at, but I’m curious as to why he was initially used.

Did he have a performance record? Was there stallion testing back then?

What do you think made breeders flock to him in those years prior to him producing Olympic champions?

I am lucky enough to have a mare sired by Werigo, who was a grandson of Ramzes (via Rigoletto) and I bred to Werigo pretty much exclusively because this. It’s hard to find horses w/Ramzes that close up in the pedigree these days.

This year I am breeding her to the Trakehner stallion Prelude by Mozart, who also has Ramzes up close. LOVE Ramzes and it’s cool to see his blood is still valued. Holstein breeders especially seem to not be shy about having multiple crosses to him in their program.

[D_BaldStockings]

here is some information about Ramzes that may answer your question:

http://users.stlcc.edu/nfuller/Tariq/Ramzes.html

Ramzes was Anglo Shagya, not precisely AA. Shagyas were heavily tested and very respected riding horses in their own right. Ramzes went to Germany as a mature horse in 1948 after WWII - survivors of that conflict were often best of the best out of desperate necessity and sacrifice.

Ramzes in Germany was given to a showjumper to ride, so it might be assumed that he had good potential or even exceptional ability. It is said he changed ‘the jump’ of that time for the better.

Ramzes apparently was siring horses as late as 1966 (breeding at age 28) so after his early get showed such promise (Retina, etc.) there was time to make use of him.

[D_BaldStockings]

more:
http://shagyaworld.com/sports-results/ramzes-an-anglo-shagya/

[D_BaldStockings]

Ramzes TB sire Rittersporn also sired a showjumping mare in Poland:
Warszawianka, foaled 1924.

So I would say There was ‘evidence’ sufficient to use Ramzes.

[D_BaldStockings]

Rasputin (holst) traces to Rittersporn 3 times in a six generation pedigree and has indirect offspring of some interest today

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/268

[D_BaldStockings]

As to the TB times at anything over 1 mile: in the USA Sprint racing at short distances is king and finding races over 1 1/4 mile is beyond rare.

I found this interesting re: modern TB; aparently as fast or faster than QH, which are, of course BRED FOR sprinting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq5iJWvhjlU

US TB’s run on lasix, which is a problem in itself when it comes to long term racing ability; neither humans nor animals run well dehydrated.

Perhaps a ‘modern TB use question’ might be whether the explosive ability of sprinting has a valid athletic place in showjumping breeding for improvement.

If the answer is no, then don’t use a TB. If yes, then the search for the RIGHT cross might profitably look at a very few TB.