Count Ivor xx seems to have been a nice TB.
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/13106
http://www.landgestuet.nrw.de/zucht/hengst-datenbank/einzelansicht/itts-me-du-mesnil-183/
https://www.google.nl/search?q=It´s+Me+du+Mesnil&hl=nl&rlz=1T4MERD_nlNL503NL503&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=kWsyVfDTHMPtavOJgJgK&ved=0CCMQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=698
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/116631
No miracle with his linebreeding:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=674227&blood=10"a=
[QUOTE=Elles;8111686]
Count Ivor xx seems to have been a nice TB.
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/13106
http://www.landgestuet.nrw.de/zucht/hengst-datenbank/einzelansicht/itts-me-du-mesnil-183/
https://www.google.nl/search?q=It´s+Me+du+Mesnil&hl=nl&rlz=1T4MERD_nlNL503NL503&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=kWsyVfDTHMPtavOJgJgK&ved=0CCMQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=698
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/116631
No miracle with his linebreeding:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=674227&blood=10"a=[/QUOTE]
There were quite a few nice TB’s around 35 years ago. But Elles, it’s not really germane to the topic of TB use, here and now and in Holstein.
Rather than bury this trip down memory lane in this thread, I think it would be very useful if you created a new thread with all your research and titled it “Sporthorse Thoroughbreds, Past and Present” or something like that. People could add to it, and it’s more accessible to searches and search engines.
So what DownYonder wrote about Grayarabpony about five or six posts ago (pervasive pattern of grandiosity and self-importance
- scornful, disdainful and patronizing, etc.) was not off topic?!
[QUOTE=Elles;8111805]
So what DownYonder wrote about Grayarabpony about five or six posts ago (pervasive pattern of grandiosity and self-importance
- scornful, disdainful and patronizing, etc.) was not off topic?![/QUOTE]
Oh for Heaven’s sake. I’ve been watching this thread, reading all this research and links you’ve been putting up, and thinking - gee this is nice, but no one is ever going to find them, and all that work that woman has been doing will be wasted.
I tell you what was a waste, my concern and suggestion.
Go ahead, post away.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8110936]
And…what does “highly successful at the race track” have to do with breeding sporhorses ?
It’s like saying Jeff Gordon would make a good golfer because he was a good racer.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for reiterating this.
I scratch my head a lot with these type of threads. TBs are very good at what they are bred to do…race. I’m not sure why we can’t celebrate that fact instead of constantly having silly arguments about which type of horse is at the top of the “sporthorse” pile. It would appear that the fact that most sporthorse breeders no longer want a TB in their breeding program is a bitter pill to swallow for some people. Get over it - it’s not going to be changing anytime soon.
Sorry but there have been so many attacks on this forum, also personal attacks, that I just thought this was an other of them.
[QUOTE=ahf;8111807]
Oh for Heaven’s sake. I’ve been watching this thread, reading all this research and links you’ve been putting up, and thinking - gee this is nice, but no one is ever going to find them, and all that work that woman has been doing will be wasted.
I tell you what was a waste, my concern and suggestion.
Go ahead, post away.[/QUOTE]
Anyway, it really is a WASTE because I have so many other things in my life to focus on and that are much more important!
[QUOTE=ahf;8111756]
There were quite a few nice TB’s around 35 years ago. But Elles, it’s not really germane to the topic of TB use, here and now and in Holstein.[/QUOTE]
What if someone is interested in finding the progeny of one of those TBs or maybe a similarly-bred horse?
Thanks for the info, Elles!
“It would appear that the fact that most sporthorse breeders no longer want a TB in their breeding program is a bitter pill to swallow for some people. Get over it - it’s not going to be changing anytime soon.”
Well I would not argue the xx is not specialized for jump and so may detract from what a breeder already has going–but given options–if Fragonard is what is being offered up I do not blame them --I would be very cautious breeding to him either off of that short clip of him and i love xx.
Maybe there needs to be some incentive program to bring xx stallions into sport–right now they would only be a pain to deal with and no up side to it. When I see the attractive xx OTT mares and geldings Denny Emerson has shipping in for lessons jumping 4 plus oxers in great form -you figure they have got to out be there-- not saying GP horses but at least horses able to jump 4 foot with their knees not pointing down. (Showing xx jumping 3 foot courses in bad form does not do much for the breed.)
[QUOTE=omare;8111884]
“It would appear that the fact that most sporthorse breeders no longer want a TB in their breeding program is a bitter pill to swallow for some people. Get over it - it’s not going to be changing anytime soon.”
Well I would not argue the xx is not specialized for jump and so may detract from what a breeder already has going–but given options–if Fragonard is what is being offered up I do not blame them --I would be very cautious breeding to him either off of that short clip of him and i love xx.
Maybe there needs to be some incentive program to bring xx stallions into sport–right now they would only be a pain to deal with and no up side to it. When I see the attractive xx OTT mares and geldings Denny Emerson has shipping in for lessons jumping 4 plus oxers in great form -you figure they have got to out be there-- not saying GP horses but at least horses able to jump 4 foot with their knees not pointing down. (Showing xx jumping 3 foot courses in bad form does not do much for the breed.)[/QUOTE]
I think it’s important to see the horse yourself, as in this case, I don’t think Fragonard is shown in his best light. I’ve heard nothing but good things about Fragonard (as far as xx/blood). Having been at Denny’s, and having been a working student for him - the picture you get of his horses is not always the horse represented. Not saying he misrepresents his horses, because he doesn’t – but it’s hard to judge a horse off of a single still photo. Same with any video, etc.
Denny often reminds people - the TBs with the good traits are STILL out there. There are still good TBs, the yesteryear TBs are a myth (in my opinion - there were PLENTY of breakdowns in the last few eras too… ) - there have been a lot of changes in the breeding and the direction of race-bred TBs, but those ‘old lines’ that the nostalgic seem to covet are still very much out there.
It just takes a very, very experienced horse person to find them. Often they are the diamond in the rough, or out in a field, looking unpresentable and unathletic. It also takes a very experienced and very good rider to convert these race-trained horses into UL mounts. Not everyone can do it - and not everyone wants to.
IMHO, the values of breeding are constantly changing, in every breed, in every discipline. The importance of blood cannot be underestimated, but it should not be overestimated - there are proponents for every breed, in many ways a WB is better than a TB, and in many ways, a TB can be better than a WB. Ten years down the road, breeds of horses are going to look very different than they do today - just as they did ten years ago, and ten years ago before that.
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8111841]
What if someone is interested in finding the progeny of one of those TBs or maybe a similarly-bred horse?
Thanks for the info, Elles![/QUOTE]
That was exactly my point. House the information in a thread where someone in the future could maybe find it, and add to it.
You think someone is going to scroll through this thread’s 47 pages of contention to find her information again?
[QUOTE=DownYonder;8111563]
- pervasive pattern of grandiosity and self-importance
- scornful, disdainful and patronizing
- dismissive, contemptuous and impatient
- arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes toward those who don’t agree and or cater to the individual’s need for constant ego stroking
- reacts angrily to criticism and rejection.[/QUOTE]
Wow, DY – you may have broken your thesaurus on this one! But accurate, none the less.
[QUOTE=Nod Hill Farm;8110875]
I have a question. Please don’t jump down my throat 
Here in the US the TB would generally be a mare, generally from a mare line not particularly distinguished in showjumping. In Europe the TB would be a stallion inserted every few generations onto a WB mare line to refresh it. . Aren’t those two completely different set ups?[/QUOTE]
Yes, but many American WB breeders used TB mares because we have so many and because they are so cheap. The very first WB foal I produced was o/o a TB mare I bought for $800. She was placed in the MMB of OldNA and produced a Premium, inspection-winning colt by Ideal. That colt went on to do very well in h/j and (per his cowardly owner) would have be one heck of an eventer if she had had the nerve. Last I heard that horse is STILL packing around young riders in hunter classes.
Another mare, a granddaughter of Secretariet who had two crosses to La Troienne I paid $600 for. She produced a lovely foal by an Escudo son and that foal also did very well in hunters.
It's faily easy to get a TB mare placed in the MMB of several WB registries, whereas even in the more lax registries, that is not the case with stallions.
Again, IF TBs were bred & tested for sport, it might be a whole different story, but like other posters have dually noted, racing & sport are two VERY different deals.
A stallion who ran in claimers till he was 8 yrs old has just as much chance of being a solid "sporthorse" sire as the stallion who won $200,000 on the track and retired at 3yrs old.
And now, IMHO, even the TBs bred for racing are of a lower quality than those put on the ground 20-30 yrs ago. In all the things that matter, most of them have even less to offer sporthorse breeders than those past animals. For instance, look up these race records:
http://www.horsehats.com/horse-racing-records.html
Not ONE record has been set in the last 10 years. Not one. And if you start looking at races of the "classic" distances (which use to be the hallmark of a great racehorse) the vast majority we set in the '70's-'80's. Some in the '90s.
Swaps' time for 1 5/8th was set in 1956!! Kelso still holds the record for 2 miles, which he set in 1964 when he was 7 years old! Given the fact he'd won this race 4 yrs in a row, my guess is he was packing about 130 lbs when he set this last record.
He was quick, he was nimble, smart & light on his feet and he had very few soundness issues. After his retirement, his owner foxhunted off him, reporting "he jumped like he's been doing it his whole life."
He might have been a good candidate for sporthorse sire, except the fact he was a gelding...and rather plain to look at. But WOW, was he a racehorse.
But my point is that by & large the modern American-bred TBs are not even that great at the job which they were bred for, much less a job they were NOT bred for.
If you picked the “world’s best” in dressage & showjumping from 30 yrs ago, and placed them against today’s champions, most of us would agree today’s horse would be superior. That’s breeding, right? The “product” is suppose to get better & better.
But despite improvements in nutrition, vet care, racing surfaces, etc. the American TB is slower, weaker & less sound overall than the horses bred “back in the day.”
So why people would expect THESE horses to improve the modern sporthorse is beyond me…
Maybe in Europe they breed 'em differently...[QUOTE=omare;8111884]
“It would appear that the fact that most sporthorse breeders no longer want a TB in their breeding program is a bitter pill to swallow for some people. Get over it - it’s not going to be changing anytime soon.”
Well I would not argue the xx is not specialized for jump and so may detract from what a breeder already has going–but given options–if Fragonard is what is being offered up I do not blame them --I would be very cautious breeding to him either off of that short clip of him and i love xx.
Maybe there needs to be some incentive program to bring xx stallions into sport–right now they would only be a pain to deal with and no up side to it. When I see the attractive xx OTT mares and geldings Denny Emerson has shipping in for lessons jumping 4 plus oxers in great form -you figure they have got to out be there-- not saying GP horses but at least horses able to jump 4 foot with their knees not pointing down. (Showing xx jumping 3 foot courses in bad form does not do much for the breed.)[/QUOTE]
“I would be very cautious breeding to him”. See here’s where you can learn something Omare…
The breeders that have used Fragonard xx have bred with their motherline for 5, 6 7 generations. They do not need to heed your statement of caution because it is THEIR motherline , and they will know exactly what Fragonard xx has brought to the table, or , taken from the table.
YOU are looking at a short clip of a stallion…this is the only information that YOU have. YOU don’t have the same information the Verband or the breeders have.
You are of course entitled to your opinion.
I would disagree with this particular statement, and would hate for someone not familiar with racebred-TBs to believe this. It feeds into the whole ‘bygone era’, ‘the world as we know it is gone’, rose-colored glasses, nostalgia, etc etc.
Back in the day, you could run a horse that was lame - you could run a horse on a million steroids. You could run a horse on just about any drug, INCLUDING a drug that enhanced (obviously) performance. There were rules, and testing, but you could get away with a lot more than you can now.
So many advances have been made in the rules prohibiting this, and so many advances in medicine (ultrasounds were a new concept with HUMANS when Swaps was running!) that now we are detecting issues sooner, and pulling horses when we wouldn’t have “back in the day”. The genepool is so much wider, transport has boomed in the past era and we are now able to access horses an entire continent away with just a planeflight.
There are STILL TBs out there that are hardknockers, that are sound their entire lives. American racing has diverged and with it, the profiles of these racers have changed – turf racers are distinctly different than grass, steeplechasers different than dirt, etc.
You may not have been on the backside of a track recently, and that is okay – but I’ve volunteered at several different tracks now to take listings, and I see a mix of it all. Just the same as I see a mix of quality and not-so-quality WBs, Arabs, Morgans, you name it.
If you want a sound, hardknocking horse that rivals the stallions of your fond yesteryear, check the backside of any track you can. It may take some digging, or pulling some connections, but they are there.
The American bred TB is not slower or weaker than it has been - it is just that brilliance (in any breed) has, and will always be, a minority. Even the best bred don’t always outproduce themselves.
Carry on, sorry to derail.
I already met with quite a lot of hostility here when I was doing just that.
All the negativity I meet here when I say something in favor of TB blood is just scary. And I can do without all that negativity. My dad died a year ago from cancer and I am still not over the time of his illness and his death. It turned out that I was suffering from depression after that and being on this forum does not help at all with that. So out of self protection I better stay away from here.
Also I have my fulltime job, my horses, my partner, friends and family and I am busy graduating for my parttime studies business administration. So I actually should not have been spending any time here at all. There is always someone or something suffering from it because of not getting enough attention. I do not know why I have been spending my time here to be honest and I do not mean that in a sarcastic way. Because I know there are a few people here who appreciate (some of my) contributions.
[QUOTE=ahf;8111997]
That was exactly my point. House the information in a thread where someone in the future could maybe find it, and add to it.
You think someone is going to scroll through this thread’s 47 pages of contention to find her information again?[/QUOTE]
And what I actually meant to say:
If you have read lots and lots about the better and best TB’s in the better and best sporthorses of the past and present, you get a feel for which present TB’s might be the best ones to use nowadays. Because the best lines of the past, in fact still are the best for the present. So one should look for concentration of those lines.
About Kelso, I was very lucky and got to see him in a fundraiser after he was retired from the track (sesamoid bone fracture?) where they gave us a taste of Kelso as a hunter in training. They had show jumps with standards set up in the infield.
Rails falling all over the place (low fences, 3’6"?). No technique, but he did jump each fence.
After that I was sort of surprised to learn he became a fox-hunter, but obviously he did learn how to jump safely. I envy his owner, can you imagine having a fox-hunter that had PROVEN that he was one of the fastest and most enduring TBs in history?
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8112008]
Wow, DY – you may have broken your thesaurus on this one! But accurate, none the less.[/QUOTE]
No thesaurus used, but I did reference a psychology textbook.
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8112530]
About Kelso, I was very lucky and got to see him in a fundraiser after he was retired from the track (sesamoid bone fracture?) where they gave us a taste of Kelso as a hunter in training. They had show jumps with standards set up in the infield.
Rails falling all over the place (low fences, 3’6"?). No technique, but he did jump each fence.
After that I was sort of surprised to learn he became a fox-hunter, but obviously he did learn how to jump safely. I envy his owner, can you imagine having a fox-hunter that had PROVEN that he was one of the fastest and most enduring TBs in history?[/QUOTE]
Agree - it must have been quite something for his owner, to have such a renowned horse to foxhunt!
