I have a question. Please don’t jump down my throat 
Here in the US the TB would generally be a mare, generally from a mare line not particularly distinguished in showjumping.
In Europe the TB would be a stallion inserted every few generations onto a WB mare line to refresh it.
N.B. I exclude a horse like Butts Abraxxas, a Hannoverian mareline bred to nothing but TB stallions for over a century to get to that animal.
Aren’t those two completely different set ups?
[QUOTE=Stoney447;81 My baby will be registered RPSI because they have placed a provision in their registration that allows TBs who have been highly successful at the track to sire offspring for their main book out of an approved mare.
.[/QUOTE]
This is interesting…
What is the RPSI definition of "highly successful at the track?
[QUOTE=skydy;8110910]
This is interesting…
What is the RPSI definition of "highly successful at the track?[/QUOTE]
And…what does “highly successful at the race track” have to do with breeding sporhorses ?
It’s like saying Jeff Gordon would make a good golfer because he was a good racer.
Stoney, to save space and bandwidth, I am not going to quote your post, but Oldenburg (OHBS/GOV) used to consider a race record for approval of TB stallions. The provision allowed TB stallions with the race record requirement to be considered as having met the registry’s stallion performance requirement (i.e., the sport requirement, but in racing instead of in dressage, show jumping, or eventing). Of course, the stallion also had to be presented for inspection - including evaluation for conformation and movement, as well as free-jumping), but if he passed the inspection and met the performance requirement, he was considered fully approved.
I can’t remember what the requirement was, but the horse had to have a successful racing record at a certain level - I think there was a handicap requirement involved. In the past, a good number of TB stallions were approved in Germany this way. My Eylers’ books have a plethora of TB stallions listed - for instance, there are over two dozen of them in the 2000 book (including their GAG limit). And quite a few of them were approved by multiple registries.
However, I think they were finding (as some on this thread have pointed out), that racing success does not necessarily translate to success in the sport horse disciplines, nor do these horses reliably add desirable sport horse qualities to TODAY’S warmblood population, so they are now very cautious about approving TB stallions. This blurb is in the current rulebook:
…Thoroughbreds who may be accepted for inspection as long as the stallion has the correct registry papers from the Jockey club, and Arabians who are accepted only in special cases. For both Thoroughbreds and Arabians, the owners must file a special request, and be aware that because of the lack of performance tests for these registries, very few of these requests are accepted.
I thought the breed books historically used track performance in xx stallions approvals either in earnings or how they are weighted in the national handicap rankings.
How talented a racehorse is may reflect some interior and exterior qualities, gallop, stride length and athleticism that may be preferred over xx stallions that does not have such a track performance and hence arguably such qualities. Perhaps those qualites are no longer needed and thus these qualities no longer needed to be quanitifed in some way by racehorse track performance.
The really good stake horses most frequently have “class”, a “presence”, a quality , a superior intelligence and a personaility that reflects a professionalism and willingness to work and the talent to get it done. But of course these things may no longer be need to be added to the Holsteiner via the xx.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8110646]
Seriously? Do you actually think GAP was banned because she was “pro-TB?” Come on…
I honestly can’t believe that ANYONE participating in this discussion is anti-TB. The question was “Does the TB have a place today in producing a modern GP jumper?” Pure & simple.
There is absolutely no way to determine the answer to that question without a crystal ball, but plenty of people offered educated opinions based on their experience with breeding and/or competing.
GAP had/has ZERO experience in either area, which doesn’t mean her opinion is completely without value, and I don’t think anyone is suggesting that. Yes, IMHO it DOES lessen the value – just as if I offered my opinion on what the quarterback should have done in the last minutes of a game based on the fact I’ve watch football afew times on TV.
I’m not sure why people aren’t getting this – it had nothing to do with the opinion GAP expressed and EVERYTHING to do with how it was expressed…which was by belittling or looking down her nose at the person who disagreed with her.
And when the person(s) she was belittling had mountains of actual EXPERIENCE in the subject and GAP would take this superior, know-it-all tone it made alot of us “hostile.”
THAT was what made the dog bite, NOT the fact she liked TBs or had a different opinion.[/QUOTE]
No, I don’t think GAP was banished because she was pro-TB (??)… and I didn’t say that. I also said both parties, guilty of being and acting like children, deserved the same treatment. Her belittling comments were not unequivocal - there were others too.
However, BOTH parties make wanting to participate in this discussion difficult (which is what I said in my original thread, maybe I should have been clearer?)-- if you say anything one way, you’re called an idiot – if you say anything the other way, you’re a TB-jihadist or spectacular no-account person. I really can’t see how you can defend either party here, Kyzteke.
[QUOTE=skydy;8110910]
This is interesting…
What is the RPSI definition of "highly successful at the track?[/QUOTE]
Over $100,000 won I believe.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8110936]And…what does “highly successful at the race track” have to do with breeding sporhorses ?
It’s like saying Jeff Gordon would make a good golfer because he was a good racer.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely nothing, which was my question in my too-wordy post. How do we determine in this country which TBs, if any at all, should be used for sport horse breeding when the owners are not interested in presenting them or testing them.
For me, I went to the TB due to fertility issues in my mare. I will take my filly and breed it back to a nice lovely Holsteiner.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8111016]
No, I don’t think GAP was banished because she was pro-TB (??)… and I didn’t say that. I also said both parties, guilty of being and acting like children, deserved the same treatment. Her belittling comments were not unequivocal - there were others too.
However, BOTH parties make wanting to participate in this discussion difficult (which is what I said in my original thread, maybe I should have been clearer?)-- if you say anything one way, you’re called an idiot – if you say anything the other way, you’re a TB-jihadist or spectacular no-account person. I really can’t see how you can defend either party here, Kyzteke.[/QUOTE]
Since you keep bringing up the term I coined…I can only assume you are referring to me as the other half of “both” parties.
You should re-read the entire thread and you will notice it wasn’t only 2 people (“both”)…it was about 25 to 1 against GAP.
And IIRC…I have never seen one person call you an idiot.
[QUOTE=Stoney447;8111070]
Over $100,000 won I believe.
Absolutely nothing, which was my question in my too-wordy post. How do we determine in this country which TBs, if any at all, should be used for sport horse breeding when the owners are not interested in presenting them or testing them.
For me, I went to the TB due to fertility issues in my mare. I will take my filly and breed it back to a nice lovely Holsteiner.[/QUOTE]
Actually, and I could be wrong… but I do remember reading somewhere (maybe it was about Fragonard xx?) on the Verband that a successful TB’s track record IS considered… Or, at least, it was for him.
Now that I am thinking… I think it was an xx TB that started with an A.
I will be open with my personal opinion that there is always something lost (from both sides) when crossing a WB with a TB – in my experience it has been that the F1 result is a nice horse, but neither has stellar gaits nor a stellar gallop/stamina. What I see the most promise is in the F1 when crossed back to a WB – there are so many things I love about both that is sometimes lost in the F1 foal. The immediate result is not always the best answer, but usually that result can go on and produce something better. I find it incredibly short-sighted to refuse the TB or let a neighbor do it – as breeders, one should always look ahead - not just at this generation and what it produces, but what the next generation produces, and the one after that.
Currently, there is only one TB in the RPSI Stallion Book I (fully approved) or Stallion Book IIA (Eligible for book I after 70 Day Test or Performance requirements) and that is Goldmaker. I know he completed the 70 Day test. I know Coconut Grove is approved however, I’m sure he was not activated for this year (Great loss). There are a couple of TB stallions in Book II however, If I’m not mistaken Book II Stallions can not move up to book I and their foals will only be eligible for COP.
[QUOTE=Stoney447;8111070]
Over $100,000 won I believe.
Absolutely nothing, which was my question in my too-wordy post. How do we determine in this country which TBs, if any at all, should be used for sport horse breeding when the owners are not interested in presenting them or testing them.
For me, I went to the TB due to fertility issues in my mare. I will take my filly and breed it back to a nice lovely Holsteiner.[/QUOTE]
Oh boy, race earnings ( $100,000. ) make a TB sire eligible?
That’s crazy. There are 3yr old TBs that earn that much and then break down before they are 4 yrs old.
Surely there are requirements as to soundness, conformation and/or starts?
Do you know if there are?
I suppose this won’t really become a problem, since the fees may still be too high for sporthorse breeding. It is amazing to me how many race TB breeders will use unsound stock.
I see that Darley bred a full to Eight Belles, that broke his maiden today. I am puzzled, why would anyone repeat that particular cross? http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91319/brother-to-eight-belles-gets-tesio-class-test
Some breeders (see Fred and a few others) are making good TB cross and TB eventers and I’m sure that they have a good chance at success, as they keep on with careful breeding, in getting many to the top level.
GP jumpers just seem to be a different ball game.
[QUOTE=skydy;8111214]
Oh boy, race earnings ( $100,000. ) make a TB sire eligible?
That’s crazy. There are 3yr old TBs that earn that much and then break down before they are 4 yrs old.
Surely there are requirements as to soundness, conformation and/or starts?
Do you know if there are?
I suppose this won’t really become a problem, since the fees may still be too high for sporthorse breeding. It is amazing to me how many race TB breeders will use unsound stock.
I see that Darley bred a full to Eight Belles, that broke his maiden today. I am puzzled, why would anyone repeat that particular cross? http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/91319/brother-to-eight-belles-gets-tesio-class-test
Some breeders (see Fred and a few others) are making good TB cross and TB eventers and I’m sure that they have a good chance at success, as they keep on with careful breeding, in getting many to the top level.
GP jumpers just seem to be a different ball game.[/QUOTE]
Approval for use of TB stallions seems to be on a case-by-case basis after they have met the preliminary requirement of $100,000 earned and/or stakes wins. I do not think that there has been much interest in using TB sires that are not already approved by some registry and marketed towards sport, but it appears that the inspectors will look more closely at the stallion if a mare owner wishes to use it after it has met those basic requirements.
The stallion that I used has won over $700,000 with 10 stakes wins in his career. I did not choose to use him because of this. I chose to use him because I like him, his conformation, his movement, and his athleticism as well as the fact that he is available to me live cover. I also have a lot of faith in my damline as to what it brings to the table with regards to jumping talent.
While the requirements to be considered may seem lax, I am grateful that RPSI was willing to work with me so I can get my filly registered so that I can continue to breed with this damline in the future.
[QUOTE=skydy;8111214]
Oh boy, race earnings ( $100,000. ) make a TB sire eligible?
That’s crazy. There are 3yr old TBs that earn that much and then break down before they are 4 yrs old.
Surely there are requirements as to soundness, conformation and/or starts?
Do you know if there are?[/QUOTE]
I was very disillusioned when I watched a foal get the full brand and full papers who was sired by a TB stallion, that no one (except the mare owner) had even seen. But the stallion had won 100 K on the track. With today’s purses, that isn’t even that much and coupled with the average distances TBs are running, makes that a very poor criteria, IMO.
[QUOTE=Stoney447;8111070]
Over $100,000 won I believe.
Absolutely nothing, which was my question in my too-wordy post. How do we determine in this country which TBs, if any at all, should be used for sport horse breeding when the owners are not interested in presenting them or testing them.
For me, I went to the TB due to fertility issues in my mare. I will take my filly and breed it back to a nice lovely Holsteiner.[/QUOTE]
The only way to determine is to test them. I mean we need to know something at least. Can they jump any at all ? Can they move in the canter ? Are they built properly to produce sporthorses ? Etc.
The one problem I see so much is their incorrect frame. The toplines often render them incapable of ever being strong breeders of sporthorses.
Holstein has been using Fragonard xx and I have seen a few of his foals that were very good in the type. They had lost quite a bit of the movement from the mothers but their type was good and we’ll see how they breed when they are taken back to a Holsteiner Stallion.
Fragonard may be promising but to me his top line when he is under tack is not even great compared to other xx stallions (just look at the blood horse stallion pages) and his front legs are not quick. (granted short video only)
It makes you wonder --if he is an example of what is being approved --is it because top xx racing stallions are being used to make racing xx and are to expensive to use to make sport horses?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9MVb0AitgA) he does not seem to have a lot of stallion “presence” under tack.
[QUOTE=Stoney447;8111248]
Approval for use of TB stallions seems to be on a case-by-case basis after they have met the preliminary requirement of $100,000 earned and/or stakes wins. I do not think that there has been much interest in using TB sires that are not already approved by some registry and marketed towards sport, but it appears that the inspectors will look more closely at the stallion if a mare owner wishes to use it after it has met those basic requirements.
The stallion that I used has won over $700,000 with 10 stakes wins in his career. I did not choose to use him because of this. I chose to use him because I like him, his conformation, his movement, and his athleticism as well as the fact that he is available to me live cover. I also have a lot of faith in my damline as to what it brings to the table with regards to jumping talent.
While the requirements to be considered may seem lax, I am grateful that RPSI was willing to work with me so I can get my filly registered so that I can continue to breed with this damline in the future.[/QUOTE]
That makes sense.
I am sure that you chose carefully. Most breeders of sport horses are very careful.:yes:
I was surprised at the rather arbitrary qualification for a TB stallion by the RPSI. I’d think that most sport horse breeders would consider many qualities in a racing TB stallion (as you did) to be rather more important than “money earned in racing”.
Thanks for explaining that money earned is the qualification for having the registry take a look. I appreciate that you answered my question without rancor.:yes:
[QUOTE=beowulf;8111016]
No, I don’t think GAP was banished because she was pro-TB (??)… and I didn’t say that. I also said both parties, guilty of being and acting like children, deserved the same treatment. Her belittling comments were not unequivocal - there were others too.
However, BOTH parties make wanting to participate in this discussion difficult (which is what I said in my original thread, maybe I should have been clearer?)-- if you say anything one way, you’re called an idiot – if you say anything the other way, you’re a TB-jihadist or spectacular no-account person. I really can’t see how you can defend either party here, Kyzteke.[/QUOTE]
Post #856, by the moderator:
Most moderation activity is done behind the scenes, so it may not always be evident when issues are being addressed, so we can appreciate where people feel like things come out of the blue sometimes or aren’t being addressed to their standards.
Also, since all these behaviors have been exhibited by GAP on this thread and others, I can certainly believe that she couldn’t refrain from exhibiting the same behaviors toward the mods.
And I doubt we have seen the last of her on this forum. She will be back at some point - if not as GAP, with some other handle.
[QUOTE=Stoney447;8111248]
Approval for use of TB stallions seems to be on a case-by-case basis after they have met the preliminary requirement of $100,000 earned and/or stakes wins. I do not think that there has been much interest in using TB sires that are not already approved by some registry and marketed towards sport, but it appears that the inspectors will look more closely at the stallion if a mare owner wishes to use it after it has met those basic requirements.
The stallion that I used has won over $700,000 with 10 stakes wins in his career. I did not choose to use him because of this. I chose to use him because I like him, his conformation, his movement, and his athleticism as well as the fact that he is available to me live cover. I also have a lot of faith in my damline as to what it brings to the table with regards to jumping talent.
While the requirements to be considered may seem lax, I am grateful that RPSI was willing to work with me so I can get my filly registered so that I can continue to breed with this damline in the future.[/QUOTE]
Did RPSI inspect that stallion? Did they evaluate him for conformation, movement, and free jumping ability?
[QUOTE=omare;8111345]
Fragonard may be promising but to me his top line when he is under tack is not even great compared to other xx stallions (just look at the blood horse stallion pages) and his front legs are not quick. (granted short video only)
It makes you wonder --if he is an example of what is being approved --is it because top xx racing stallions are being used to make racing xx and are to expensive to use to make sport horses?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9MVb0AitgA) he does not seem to have a lot of stallion “presence” under tack.[/QUOTE]
This is why you have to see them in person Omare and not in some photo or video. His topline is just fine to attempt breeding with. The Holsteiner mares that are chosen for him are super strong there.
Time will tell if his progeny are any good. The few I’ve seen were nice.
Glad to hear that. Tuition fees will be keeping me from traveling far for a awhile so eyes on the ground are appreciated.
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