New decision in Holstein

[tuckawayfarm]

[QUOTE=skydy;8109761]
Perhaps she was banned perhaps for continually straying off topic and into personal attacks. It seems there were personal issues between GAP and others (that I know nothing about) and they seemed to cloud GAP’s and others’ posts.

I am not a bully. Supershorty is certainly not a bully. I did feel hostility coming from GAP I did not understand it and it was unpleasant.
The moderators do usually warn people, and give them a chance before they are banned.[/QUOTE]

I felt the same way and stopped posting on this thread a few pages back. GAP has a long history of contempt with some posters that I have found easy to ignore over the years. The hostility in this thread seemed much more general and made participating uncomfortable.

[DownYonder]

The mods have shown remarkable restraint on this, and other threads where GAP presented herself as the goddess of sport horse breeding, and would not listen to anyone who disagreed with her - no matter how much experience or expertise they had.

However, I will remind everyone of these comments:

From Cumano:

We all respect, in our own manner I agree, others opinion. But you (GAP) state your opinions as the evident truth, although it is clear you have no valuable experience at all either in Breeding or sport and the very limited knowledge you have is filed with stereotypes and plane misconception. Also, many of your opinions goes at the very opposite of what is pretty much unanimoysly accepted as basic knowledge, and you qualify people who disagree with you as goofy, ignorant, laghable and silly. This explain, I think, the attitude people have toward you. We put so much in our passion, it is irritating, although entertaining, to have you ridiculizing an otherwise interesting debate, without bringing any argument.

And from Out West:

I am trying to decide if your (GAP’s) arrogance exceeds your ignorance or vice versa.

So I am thinking that perhaps GAP’s arrogance got the better of her, and she decided to get into it with the mods. I can’t help but wonder what names she called them. :winkgrin:

[Lord_Helpus]

I highly recommend the Ignore button. Just click on a member’s name, then go to View Profile. Then click on Ignore.

You will see when someone on your ignore list posts and have the option of reading that post, but if you know that person might upset you it makes life so much nicer to slide right on by.

I put GAP on Ignore months ago, so I do not know what she said that got her banned, and I am the happier for it.

[omare]

Of course the question remains unanswered (from all the experts, breeders, non breeders, couch potato breeders, fantasy breeders wishful breeders, successful and unsuccessful breeders) whether holsteiners will need more blood in the future for interior and or exterior qualities. That will remain unanswered until such time they do or do not.

Regarding future sporthorse sires --(to tie into the topic :)) I think Zenyatta’s son runs today- He is suppose to be very smart iron horse with an opinion (and big feet-I saw pictures of his shoes) and seems to be trained like the old timers trained the timber horses–miles of miles of slow work-out of the stall for hours everyday.Keeping fingers crossed he runs well --he sounds like he has enough bottom trained into him he could run 4 miles.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Elles;8109764]
@Skydy:
There is quite a bit of history to these irritations and frustrations between people.
https://www.google.com/search?q=grayarabpony+bayhawk+thoroughbred+tom+site%3Awww.chronofhorse.com&hl=en&gbv=2&oq=&gs_l=[/QUOTE]

Yes , and you have helped to fuel the fire between people with your countless link posting to horses that have at least 1 drop of TB blood in them.

You also continue to NOT understand that none of us ever intend to dis-credit the TB , only point out that times have changed and their contribution is not needed so much at the moment.

[Cumano]

NOw that the problem is solved, why don’t we go back to the original topic? I fell it would be a waste of time and energy to start a new fight over how and why the first fight got solved…

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=Elles;8109756]
I stopped contributing because it all got too heated and unfriendly. The negativity was too much for me. I think it is not fair that GAP has been banned. Because other people in my eyes did not behave any different or maybe worse.[/QUOTE]

You have been on GAP´s side all the time on this post. However, contrary to GAP, I feel people have directed no hostility towards you, and you have not been suspended. People who disagree with you took time anyway to answer your posts with argument. This is because although you clear l’y showed where you stood, you did it with respect for others comments. I think it illustrates the fairness. It is not about what you think, it is about contributing in building a propice environnement for good discussions.

[Elles]

I do understand that breeding is not an exact science and I do understand that people want to stack the odds.
I do not want to start all over again with all the old stuff.
But I do feel that it has not only been GAP who showed hostility.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Elles;8109906]

But I do feel that it has not only been GAP who showed hostility.[/QUOTE]

It’s not just you - I’ve refrained from participating because the diatribe several users in this thread constantly issue (in past threads) is just not worth enduring - it’s not really a discussion when you try to offer your own personal insight or thoughts and you are lambasted/inundated with personal rancor and the literal jeremiad of various posters. Posters who have no problem telling you your discussion or insights are worthless and you are an idiot or a TB-jihadist for participating in the subject.

Of course, YMMV. If you’re one of many of the outspoken WB-proponents on this thread, you can do so without evincing the interference of moderation or banishment. At the very least, both participants should have been banished, as both were acting like children and there was plenty of incriminating dialogue back and forth. :yes:

Me personally, I see it from all sides and I don’t think TBs are the end-all to the upper echelon of sport… but WBs are not without their faults. Neither breeds are.

[Pennywell_Bay]

Is GAP banned from COTH or just this thread?

To the topic- I have learned a lot from ALL of the breeders who have presented information. Though I am not a breeder, I AM a reasonably intellegent horse person who can see true facts presented and when it is opinion (and sometimes a mix).

I did want to thank breeders and experts who explain bloodlines, crosses etc to people who are not as literate in terms of breeding. I enjoy a great discussion!

[Moderator_1]

Most moderation activity is done behind the scenes, so it may not always be evident when issues are being addressed, so we can appreciate where people feel like things come out of the blue sometimes or aren’t being addressed to their standards. Unless someone goes completely crazy, a banning is typically not a sole reflection of activity on one thread.

As noted before, we try to give users the benefit of the doubt and as much freedom as possible. When patterns of behavior persist, we have to ask whether it’s in the best interests of the community, or a wise investment of moderation resources, to have to continue to address the same issues with the same posters repeatedly.

As suggested earlier, please return to the main topic.
Thanks,
Mod 1

[Elles]

In the mean time the people on the German forum only got to three pages discussing the topic: http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/showthread.php?73837-Neuregelung-Einsatz-von-Vollbluthengsten-in-Holstein/page3

[QUOTE=Elles;8045839]
http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/showthread.php?73837-Neuregelung-Einsatz-von-Vollbluthengsten-in-Holstein
The Board of the Holstein Association has advised on the use of Thoroughbred stallions. To expand the range for the breeders who are interested in the use of a thoroughbred, it was decided that the use of Thoroughbred stallions approved at other associations is also possible. This means that interested breeders, by request to the Association in Kiel, can use any on WBFS-level approved thoroughbred stallion.[/QUOTE]

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Elles;8110315]
In the mean time the people on the German forum only got to three pages discussing the topic: http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/showthread.php?73837-Neuregelung-Einsatz-von-Vollbluthengsten-in-Holstein/page3[/QUOTE]

Yes ,but they didn’t have someone like GAP constantly derailing the thread to the tune of 40 more pages.

And…they weren’t arguing commonly known facts.

[omare]

Looks like they got off topic talking about AAs and traks instead…:

I like how it translatse Courage to blood–fine wines–so poetic!

[Cumano]

So to get back on the subject, I think it is not bad news, but I doubt it was a usefull move in this day and age. As mentionned earlier, I am not a Holsteiner breeder. I work with the KWPN which is, in its core values, more open. To me, more choice is better, and it is the breeders job to chose what works best for his own view of the ideal horse. Holsteiner breeders are often more conservative, and have historicaly protected their bloodlines by making inclusion of outside blood realy difficult. I don’t know how welcome Stallions approuved by other studbooks will be if they do not go through their own approval process.

Also their is no doubt that blood is important in todays sporthorse. Decades ago, blood in the warmblood horse came mostly from TB stallions. In my opinion, it is no longer the case. I firmly believe that the warmblood horse as evolved to a point where their are many quality stallions available that can bring blood to the equation. I am also of the opinion that the TB has many qualities it can bring to the WB, but it has also major flaws that were listed extansively earlier in that post. Breeding with a good TB stallion is good, but when used correctly, IE breeding with a generational perspective. To me, you breed with a TB to produce a Broodmare.

A second challenge with a TB stallion is that you will most probably have to use a stallion with a very small production, and an unproven dameline. The chances of this stallion producing the desired traits with sufficient regularity are much more risky than breeding with a WB horse full of blood, from a proven dame line. And if you do not produce the broodmare you wish for, chances are that your colt from the WB stallion will show less of the flaws generally associated with the TB stallion.

Of course, a new good TB stallion brings new bloodlines in the general WB population, which is a very good aspect. But if you can get the positive impact of the TB stallion from a WB stallion full of blood, with less of the negative impact than with the TB stallion, the risk superseeds the benefits. That is why

I think that the idea in itself is not a bad one, but I have my doubts with regards to its necessity, and that it will bring any significant results in the breeding population.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8109928]
It’s not just you - I’ve refrained from participating because the diatribe several users in this thread constantly issue (in past threads) is just not worth enduring - it’s not really a discussion when you try to offer your own personal insight or thoughts and you are lambasted/inundated with personal rancor and the literal jeremiad of various posters. Posters who have no problem telling you your discussion or insights are worthless and you are an idiot or a TB-jihadist for participating in the subject.

Of course, YMMV. If you’re one of many of the outspoken WB-proponents on this thread, you can do so without evincing the interference of moderation or banishment. At the very least, both participants should have been banished, as both were acting like children and there was plenty of incriminating dialogue back and forth. :yes:

Me personally, I see it from all sides and I don’t think TBs are the end-all to the upper echelon of sport… but WBs are not without their faults. Neither breeds are.[/QUOTE]

Seriously? Do you actually think GAP was banned because she was “pro-TB?” Come on…

I honestly can’t believe that ANYONE participating in this discussion is anti-TB. The question was “Does the TB have a place today in producing a modern GP jumper?” Pure & simple.

There is absolutely no way to determine the answer to that question without a crystal ball, but plenty of people offered educated opinions based on their experience with breeding and/or competing.

GAP had/has ZERO experience in either area, which doesn’t mean her opinion is completely without value, and I don’t think anyone is suggesting that. Yes, IMHO it DOES lessen the value – just as if I offered my opinion on what the quarterback should have done in the last minutes of a game based on the fact I’ve watch football afew times on TV.

I’m not sure why people aren’t getting this – it had nothing to do with the opinion GAP expressed and EVERYTHING to do with how it was expressed…which was by belittling or looking down her nose at the person who disagreed with her.

And when the person(s) she was belittling had mountains of actual EXPERIENCE in the subject and GAP would take this superior, know-it-all tone it made alot of us “hostile.”

THAT was what made the dog bite, NOT the fact she liked TBs or had a different opinion.

[Fourbeats]

I just had an exceptional colt last week by Casall / Canturo / Acorado / Ramiro. Very pleased with his quality.

Now that the air is much clearer here, I’m just popping on to say congrats, Bayhawk! Nice pedigree on that youngster.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8110646]

I’m not sure why people aren’t getting this – it had nothing to do with the opinion GAP expressed and EVERYTHING to do with how it was expressed…

QUOTE]

This x 100. My motto in life.

[Stoney447]

I am glad that the Holsteiner verband has tried to find ways to allow their breeders to use blood if the individual breeder feels they need it, be it from the SF or the TB or elsewhere. Likely very few will actually do it.

If we look at the USA though in terms of breeding, we are in a much different state than Europe. We have a large population of thoroughbreds and very little promotion of those horses towards sport. I think that the deck is stacked even heavier against the TB stallion in the USA than those few TB stallions in Europe that people will use for sport. Here even a mediocre TB sire will make more breeding TB mares for racing than warmbloods for sport. Due to this fact, many owners of very nice TB stallions will not want to bother to present them to the registries, have them undergo testing or the vetting required of them, or even free jump them to try to glean any innate ability. There is just too much of a risk to do these things if those stallions are breeding mares for racing.

There is very little support by the registries here in America to accommodate this attitude of the owners, so very few of these stallions will ever be assessed. That, to me, is another interesting question that has not been hashed out fully in these discussions. Reece has mentioned before that the TB stallions in Europe do not have to meet the same requirements of the warmblood stallions. Is this fair, and to what extent should the registries curb their requirements for those breeders who wish to use TB stallions in the USA?

I am curious about people’s opinions on this because next month I will have a foal that is by a racing thoroughbred stallion, who was very successful at the track but who has not been/will never be presented for approval. My baby will be registered RPSI because they have placed a provision in their registration that allows TBs who have been highly successful at the track to sire offspring for their main book out of an approved mare.

Is this something that should be more commonplace since the USA has so much invested in TB race breeding? Is part of the reason that we have not established many successful sport lines from the TB due to the economics of the matter, pertaining to how much more money owners will make marketing their stallions towards racing? If so, what can the registries do to help promote the development of these lines in our native breed, if anything? Maybe more research should be done to correlate success at the track to success in olympic sport. Unfortunately I think that would be a difficult test to do for the same reason. The top athletes in racing, with few exceptions, are out of reach for the average warmblood breeder in America financially, which limits us when comparing TBs to warmbloods in sport because we may not be comparing the best the TB has to offer since the best will be reserved for racing and the breeding of race horses.

I am neither for nor against using TBs in breeding as a generalization as I think it is an individual decision that should be made in only specific cases.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Fourbeats;8110727]
Now that the air is much clearer here, I’m just popping on to say congrats, Bayhawk! Nice pedigree on that youngster.[/QUOTE]

Thank you ! Yes , very good pedigree. The mares in the stamm are all super quality and I’ve personally known 4 generations of them and most of their children.

This is one example regarding the hesitation to use the TB’s…no direct family knowledge.