The definition link you gave is the definition I bolded back to you - without edit.
So by your definition any breeder who hasn’t bred before and is making a new cross is doing an F1?
Oh, never mind.
If disagreement or asking for clarification is channeling GAP, so be it.
We are all expressing opinions here.
What conditions would a TB potential outcross to produce F1 bred to Holsteiner need to have to offer something useful to the cross -in your opinion?
Thanks,
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8119696]
While it is true Dr Fager holds the record, It has been approached in more recent times; and by a 3 year old 1989:
“Easy Goer won the one mile Grade II Gotham Stakes by thirteen lengths in record time while conceding nine pounds and five pounds to the second and third place finishers respectively, including future world record holder (on turf at one mile) Expensive Decision.
won handily and his winning time of 1:32 2/5 for the mile set a new track record, a second faster than Secretariat’s stakes record, the fastest mile on a dirt surface by any three-year-old Thoroughbred in history, and a fifth of a second off Dr. Fager’s world record.”[/QUOTE]
I think I did miss the 2 furlong record or maybe disregarded it, but 2 furlongs is more like a QH distance.
And I don’t really consider 1989 “recent times”, considering it was 26 yrs ago.
I don’t think too many horses are actually bred for puissiance ; it’s more like one of those freak classes that some horses can do.
It terms of actual show jumping, most of the posters seem to think today’s courses are more difficult and technical, hence the decline of of the popularity of TB blood.
I was (and am) bemoaning more the quality of the “modern” TB as a racehorse, because of the direction TB breeders AND the racing world as a whole has gone. I worked for over 10 years on the track between '73 & '84 and do not see the quality of horses (again, of course there are exceptions) by & large in Today’s animals.
I simply think that, as an over-all athlete (which the TB always was), the TB of today is inferior to the TB of 30+ years ago.
What conditions would a TB potential outcross to produce F1 bred to Holsteiner need to have to offer something useful to the cross -in your opinion?
Sorry, I only speak Canadian. I can only guess at what your asking.
For show jumping, eventing or dressage? They do breed for all three.
Eventing-lots.
Dressage- I don’t know for sure. I know that it is a good thing and there are several key Tb’s in dressage bred horses, usually it is a F2 (couldn’t help myself) or later that you see the most benefits but stallions like Laurie’s Crusador did it in the first generation. Noble Roi is seen in some really decent dressage horses. I think it could be stamina, fitness, heart/try, length of leg, lighter body type with strength…but that is just my best guess.
Show jumping- there lies the rub. Holsteiners (modern UL show jumpers) are already very much a product of a couple outstanding Tb’s so those qualities (genes) are already present.
For many mares in the registry that need to evolve, the same qualities as mentioned in the dressage section, plus the jump. Why not just use a Hol. stallion? Because a Tb stallion could hurry the refinement process then go back to a Hol stallion.
What do you think the Tb has to offer the registry?
The world record high jump is still held by a thoroughbred ex racehorse. Such a feat would be nice for a registry to be able to brag about.
[QUOTE=Renascence;8120473]
The world record high jump is still held by a thoroughbred ex racehorse. Such a feat would be nice for a registry to be able to brag about.[/QUOTE]
…Except that it has nothing to do with show jumping and thus no relevance to SJ breeders.
The world record puissance is held by a Holsteiner at 2.40 meters. It was set in 1991, so 24 years ago, by a horse who was 56% blood with one TB grandparent and one Great grandparent and a line on top to Ladykiller. The Puissance hasn’t changed in 24 years, so if the new horses are so much more powerful, how come there isn’t a new record in the Puissance?
Within the pedigrees of most warmblood horses an infusion of TB blood can be seen during the 1960’s, 1970’s, 1980’s and / or 1990’s but also during the 19th century and / or around the year 1900. So Thoroughbred blood was absolutely nothing new to the warmbloods during the 20th century. The horses already had a share of TB genes from earlier times. So I am not sure it is right to say that when during the 20th century TB blood was again introduced, the direct TB offspring could always be considered F1 products.
These are the non TB ancestors of Quickly de Kreisker http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/520995 in his 5th generation:
AMOUR DU BOIS
SF 1966
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1021 XX/OX rate: 38,09%
TANAGRA G
SF 1963
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1022 XX/OX rate: 62,70%
JURISTE
SF 1953
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/1132 XX/OX rate: 50,20%
RELIQUE
SF 1961
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/8834 XX/OX rate: 31,45%
IBRAHIM
SF 1952
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/110 XX/OX rate: 44,53%
OSYRIS
SF 1958
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/23546 XX/OX rate: 70,31%
URLURETTE
SF 1964
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/33989 XX/OX rate: 29,88%
TANAEL (ATANAEL)
SF 1963
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/1056 XX/OX rate: 37,89%
VIVE ETOILE
SF 1965
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/117101 XX/OX rate: 59,38%
STARTER
SF 1962
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/2861 XX/OX rate: 62,70%
MAGALI
SF 1956
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/9486 XX/OX rate: 54,88%
5 ancestors in the fifth generation are TB’s.
542.01 + 500 = 1,042.01 devided by 16 = 65.1256%
Normally the further back you go in a pedigree the greater the percentage of blood becomes.
For example when looking at the ancestors in the fiourth remove of Amour du Bois:http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1021?levels=4 http://perloch.ps.free.fr/sire/sf/a/amour_du_bois.jpg
ULTIMATE XX
xx 1941
GAMINE
SF 1950
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/17960 XX/OX rate: 31,25%
ELIS
SF 1948
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/64603 XX/OX rate: 19,53%
UNIQUE
SF 1942
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/149496 XX/OX rate: 7,81%
FRA DIAVOLO XX
xx 1938
CHIQUE CAENNAISE
SF 1946
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/462443 XX/OX rate: 8,79%
JUS DE POMME
SF 1931
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/7901 XX/OX rate: 54,10%
PIKOLA
SF 1937
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/162227 No ancestors added to the database
The average percentage of XX/OX of the ancestors that have been filled in:
321.48 diveded by 7 = 45.9257% So that is quite a bit more than the initial 38.09%
Ancestors of Gaminehttp://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/17960 XX/OX rate: 31,25%
JUS D’ORANGE XX (JUS DORANGE XX)
xx
stallion 1912 chestnut
RIRETTE XX
xx
KARIKAL
SF
stallion 1910 brown
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/6059 XX/OX rate: 9,96%
LA MONTAIGNE
SF
mare 1911
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/56434 XX/OX rate: 11,52%
HAUTAIN
SF
stallion 1929 chestnut
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/34272 XX/OX rate: 26,95%
HENRIETTE
SF
mare 1929
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/69581 XX/OX rate: 17,19%
ECULLEVILLE
SF
stallion 1926 chestnut
lic: SF
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/8596 XX/OX rate: 4,10%
One ancestor has not been added.
Average percentage of blood of horses that have been added:
269.72 diveded by 7 = 38.5314%
Ancestors of Karikal KARIKAL
SF
stallion 1910 brown
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/6059 XX/OX rate: 9,96%
LAMBE
Trotter
stallion 1886 brown
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/256399 XX/OX rate: 33,40%
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10303810&time=1398437130
MISS SLOSS
Trotter
mare 1874 black
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/260684 XX/OX rate: 61,72%
LILAS
SF
stallion 1866
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/231467 No parents have been added
QUALITY
SF
mare
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/231468 No parents have been added
REALITY
SF
stallion 1875
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/260682 Very little has been added
SOUMISE
SF
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/231471 Hardly anything has been added
The last two horses have not been added at all, no names, nothing.
Average percentage of the two horses that have been (fully?) added: 47.56%
Examples of some other horses in Quickly’s pedigree a bit further back in time:
NORMAND
SF
stallion 1869
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/241941 XX/OX rate: 58,01%
KIFFIS
SF
stallion 1888
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/212499 XX/OX rate: 43,16%
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=272695&blood=10"a=
Laerte
breed Cob Normand
color Chestnut
sex stallion
height
date of birth 1933
land of birth FR France
land of standing FR France
xx/ox ca.75.00%
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10291844&blood=10"a=
Miss Sloss
breed Trotter (French)
color Black
sex female
height
date of birth 1874
Within the pedigree of Miss Sloss:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10435293&blood=10"a=
Quite a percentage of horses have not been added to the Horsetelex database further back in time.
Crossing a warmblood and a Thoroughbred can hardly be compared to crossing a donkey and a horse.
http://www.maulesel.info/what_is_a_hinny.html
http://www.haras-national-du-pin.com/le-haras-national-du-pin-se-devoile/chevaux/des-races-et-des-chevaux.html
La race
Origine : le Selle Français est issu de croisements dès le 19e siècle entre des Pur-sang anglais et des juments locales normandes. Il était appelé avant la seconde guerre mondiale le demi-sang anglo-normand. En 1958, il prend le nom de Selle Français. A partir de cette date, il est amélioré grâce à divers croisements et à la sélection sur l’aptitude sportive.
Caractéristiques : l’un des plus solides et polyvalents parmi les races de compétition européennes, c’est un excellent sauteur et très doué pour de multiples utilisations, notamment en concours complet et saut d’obstacles.
Translation:
Breed origin: The French saddle horse has been produced since the 19th century by crosses between the Thoroughbred and Norman local mares. The breed was called the Anglo-Norman half-blood before the second world war. In 1958, the breed got the name of French saddle horse. From that date, it has been improved by various crosses and selection on sports ability.
Features: one of the most solid and versatile among European competition breeds, it is an excellent jumper and very gifted for multiple uses, particularly in eventing and show jumping.
The same goes for horses of other warmblood studbooks, like the Holsteiner.
There are still those gallant Thoroughbreds racing in races like these ones:
IGN = Irish Grand National
GN = Grand National
GSP = Grand Steeplechase de Paris
AGN = American Grand National
CGC = Cheltenham Gold Cup
And those Thoroughbreds competing in the highest levels of eventing.
And horses that run in these long distance races:
http://www.britishchampionsseries.com/fixtures/october/17/the-qipco-british-champions-long-distance-cup.html
The seven races in the QIPCO British Champions Long Distance category vary in distance from the extended 1¾ miles (2,920 metres) of Doncaster’s Ladbrokes St Leger to the 2½ miles (4,000 metres) of the Gold Cup at Royal Ascot. The two mile trip of the QIPCO British Champions Long Distance Cup provides the perfect distance for the category finale.
While technically a Group 2 contest - it was raised from Group 3 status in 2014 - it is a Group 1 contest in all but name, with previous Group race winners no longer having to carry any extra weight.
With £300,000 in prize money, it is the second most valuable all-aged long distance race in the British calendar after the Gold Cup at Royal Ascot and it was fitting that Europe’s best stayer, the Aidan O’Brien-trained Fame And Glory, should prove his long distance prowess by winning both races in 2011.
In 2012 Rite Of Passage, the 2010 Gold Cup winner, put up a sensational performance to win the race on his first start since May, 2011, while in 2013 the 2012 Irish St Leger, Royal Diamond, was successful - ridden and trained by the brilliant Johnny Murtagh.
All three winners of the race so far were previous Group 1 winners, a fine statement about the quality of the race.
[QUOTE=skydy;8120556]
…Except that it has nothing to do with show jumping and thus no relevance to SJ breeders.[/QUOTE]
oh yes the good TB high jumper has no relevance to SJ breeders because they have changed the format and no longer do the high jump competition…kind of reminds me how the eventing long format got changed…
Carry on with breeding Holsteins and Traks with a kneehanger then since I’ve been told the registry has tested and researched this so well.
Danzig, Mr. Prospector, Northern Dancer?! http://www.pedigreequery.com/royal+diamond10
Champion stayer in Europe:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/rite+of+passage
[QUOTE=Renascence;8121667]
oh yes the good TB high jumper has no relevance to SJ breeders because they have changed the format and no longer do the high jump competition…kind of reminds me how the eventing long format got changed…
Carry on with breeding Holsteins and Traks with a kneehanger then since I’ve been told the registry has tested and researched this so well.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think there is any need to be offended by the replies with regards to Puissance. It’s just not popular the way it used to be, and for sure no one is breeding specifically for puissance horses. There really is no use today for a horse who is capable of jumping one huge fence. It seems that these days, when the class is offered, it’s more of a fun, crowd-pleasing thing than something anyone takes seriously. And I think those who enter it don’t take it seriously. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen riders bow out before they were eliminated, because they had their fun but were more interested in their horse’s, as well as their own, welfare. Puissance is more comparable to a fun costume class than a real test of anything these days.
[QUOTE=Renascence;8121667]
oh yes the good TB high jumper has no relevance to SJ breeders because they have changed the format and no longer do the high jump competition…kind of reminds me how the eventing long format got changed…
Carry on with breeding Holsteins and Traks with a kneehanger then since I’ve been told the registry has tested and researched this so well.[/QUOTE]
Hey! :lol: Don’t kill the messenger!
It’s not my fault that there’s no money to be made and thus no incentive to breed horses for the few remaining puissance classes on the planet…
[QUOTE=skydy;8122292]
Hey! :lol: Don’t kill the messenger!
It’s not my fault that there’s no money to be made and thus no incentive to breed horses for the few remaining puissance classes on the planet…:)[/QUOTE]
This is a true statement. Two points:
But with that being said, and after all I’ve said about my TB and his challenges, I do wish they had Puissance classes somewhat routinely. My guy may struggle with the big square oxers out of short turns, but give me a good gallop to a massive fence and we’re good to go!
It’s kind of like Long drive vs golf. So much more to the game.
Rena. after 43 pages and you are still missing the point.
The sport didn’t change so much that Tb’s can’t do it.
Breeders used Tb (and other horses) to create a horse that excels and beats other horses that are not purpose bred for it.
So silly that people turn this into a Tb vs Wb debate when it is only about how a purpose bred horse is better than a non-purpose bred horse a much higher percentage of the time.
There are ponies out there that have jumped GP and are amazing, same can be said with Arabs. But they as a group cannot compete against a group that is solely bred for it. AND neither can all purpose Wb’s or Wb’s bred for dressage or Wb who’s breeders are not using the best jumping bloodlines.
Ask the Hanoverian registry. They were #1 in the world and that changed.
I have a couple Hans and I don’t try and defend their greatness with endless posts about the great jumping Hans of years past. If I want to breed for the top, I could use Hanoverians and have a lower hit rate or I could use the top bloodlines that have been created and have a greater chance of success. Or combine both for a long term breeding program.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;8122921]
It’s kind of like Long drive vs golf. So much more to the game.
Rena. after 43 pages and you are still missing the point.
The sport didn’t change so much that Tb’s can’t do it.
Breeders used Tb (and other horses) to create a horse that excels and beats other horses that are not purpose bred for it.
So silly that people turn this into a Tb vs Wb debate when it is only about how a purpose bred horse is better than a non-purpose bred horse a much higher percentage of the time.
There are ponies out there that have jumped GP and are amazing, same can be said with Arabs. But they as a group cannot compete against a group that is solely bred for it. AND neither can all purpose Wb’s or Wb’s bred for dressage or Wb who’s breeders are not using the best jumping bloodlines.
Ask the Hanoverian registry. They were #1 in the world and that changed.
I have a couple Hans and I don’t try and defend their greatness with endless posts about the great jumping Hans of years past. If I want to breed for the top, I could use Hanoverians and have a lower hit rate or I could use the top bloodlines that have been created and have a greater chance of success. Or combine both for a long term breeding program.[/QUOTE]
Amen. Someone please copy and paste this every time the debate arises. Everyone has their preference, therefore 31 flavors of ice cream.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;8122921]
It’s kind of like Long drive vs golf. So much more to the game.
Rena. after 43 pages and you are still missing the point.
The sport didn’t change so much that Tb’s can’t do it.
Breeders used Tb (and other horses) to create a horse that excels and beats other horses that are not purpose bred for it.
So silly that people turn this into a Tb vs Wb debate when it is only about how a purpose bred horse is better than a non-purpose bred horse a much higher percentage of the time.
There are ponies out there that have jumped GP and are amazing, same can be said with Arabs. But they as a group cannot compete against a group that is solely bred for it. AND neither can all purpose Wb’s or Wb’s bred for dressage or Wb who’s breeders are not using the best jumping bloodlines.
Ask the Hanoverian registry. They were #1 in the world and that changed.
I have a couple Hans and I don’t try and defend their greatness with endless posts about the great jumping Hans of years past. If I want to breed for the top, I could use Hanoverians and have a lower hit rate or I could use the top bloodlines that have been created and have a greater chance of success. Or combine both for a long term breeding program.[/QUOTE]
Well said!
From the title of this thread I thought this was a debate about the Holstein registry wanting to infuse more TB blood into their warmbloods.
I simply said there are many who are very good jumpers, with better technique than the one shown as the improvement sire. I also said a TB holds the high jump record when people were wondering what a TB could bring to the registry.
I think the Holstein decision is a good one, in principle. Warmboods often start breeding back to being too heavy, and then they need more TB blood bred in.
I actually bred my sportbred TB mare to a Holstein stallion a couple of years ago, though she aborted.
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