Stoicfish what would have happened if the breeder of this mare would have thought the same in 1988? http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/117096 That breeder could have thought it was no use breeding a mare with already 53% xx/ox to a Thoroughbred.
There would not have been the following horses:
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/117096
http://www.kwpn.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/June_Jumping_horse.pdf
http://www.worldofshowjumping.com/en/Archive/WoSJ-Close-Up-Quickly-de-Kreisker.html
http://www.cheval-suisse.com/de/Zucht/Hengste/Hengstkatalog/Quickly-de-Kreisker.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs7MA5iUSaA
[QUOTE=Elles;8123673]
Stoicfish what would have happened if the breeder of this mare would have thought the same in 1988? http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/117096 That breeder could have thought it was no use breeding a mare with already 53% xx/ox to a Thoroughbred.
There would not have been the following horses:
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/117096
http://www.kwpn.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/June_Jumping_horse.pdf
http://www.worldofshowjumping.com/en/Archive/WoSJ-Close-Up-Quickly-de-Kreisker.html
http://www.cheval-suisse.com/de/Zucht/Hengste/Hengstkatalog/Quickly-de-Kreisker.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs7MA5iUSaA[/QUOTE]
Elles , you are still citing exceptions and isolated horses. We are all speaking about what is needed in todays breeding as a whole. Why canāt you seem to comprehend this ?
Go breed all your mares to TB Stallions and show us your successful products.
Donāt you find it extraordinary that there are so many āisolatedā examples of horses to be given that have lots of TB blood, a TB dam (line) and / or a TB sire (line)?
Actually it is no exception because it has been proven over and over again that horses with Ultimate xx, Fra Diavolo xx, Laudanum xx, Orange Peel xx, Phalaris xx, Massine xx, Tantieme xx, Nearco xx, Polymelus xx (Cyllene xx), Blandford xx, Nasrullah xx, Gay Crusador xx, Dark Ronald xx, Teddy xx, Saint Just xx, Blenheim xx, Black Devil xx and Rantzau xx have proved over and over again that they can give an exceptional sport horse.
[QUOTE=Elles;8123912]
Donāt you find it extraordinary that there are so many āisolatedā examples of horses to be given that have lots of TB blood, a TB dam (line) and / or a TB sire (line)?[/QUOTE]
It isnāt extraordinary at all. And I am not telling any one not to use a Tb, I have my own horses with Tb in my pasture. All most of us are saying is that your chances (odds, stats) of breeding a top horse go down significantly if your going to use a Tb sire or mare to start with. And that is proven through the number of horses over the years that make it into the top 5000 horses. It is really that simple.
You do, want you want, for breeding. I did and am happy with the results. Fred did and she had above average success with her stallion. But none of that changes the odds of us getting a top horse compared to breeders using bloodlines that are proven. Breeding is about cutting down the odds to get your goal.
You keep posting endless examples and most are from the past of horses with some success. A time when the modern SJ was being created. Your point is no more clear with the 50th example that it was with the first. Of course they show up from time to time and of course there were sires that had a pivotal influence, but right now - if you want to breed a top show jumper (1.6m horse), your odds of breeding that go up significantly when you use bloodlines that have proven themselves to be able to produce that. Answer this Elles- is that statement not true?
I am talking about Quickly de Kreisker here, one of the hottest show jumping horses and stallions at the momentā¦
Your not answering the question I asked. And that is the whole point.
Here are the āhottest siresā right now http://www.wbfsh.org/files/2014_sire_ranking_jumping_top_100.pdf
The stallion you mentioned is not a Tb, he has Tb blood.
I am not a TB hater. I have an in-foal TB broodmare grazing outside my office window as I type this. I bred her to produce a show hunter or eventer. If I was looking to produce a showjumper i would not have used her for that, nor would I have used a Tb stallion. Hereās why:
A while back, I took the 2009 Hannoveraner Jahrbuch Hengste, and analyzed the jumping breed values for all TB and half-TB stallions in the book. The results were actually worse than i had thought they would be. Of the 19 stallions, only two had a positive index (greater than the mean of 100), and neither of those two a value high enough for me to use to breed a showjumper.
2009 Jahrbuch Henste Springen
Amerigo Vespucci xx 75
Amoroso (Augustinus xx) 102
Calderon (Cardinal xx) 92
Colway Bold xx 95
Heraldik xx 118
Lancier (Lauries Crusador xx) 69
Lauries Crusador xx 69
Laurentio (Lauries Crusador xx) 81
Lemon Park (Lemon xx) 87
Likoto xx 67
Londonderry (Lauries Crusador xx) 67
Longchamp (Lauries Crusador xx) 58
Markus Deak xx 77
Mytens xx 108
Noble Roi xx 94
Prince Thatch xx 67
Sunlight xx 85
Waldstar xx 86
Wilawander xx 67
Average 82.31579
[QUOTE=Elles;8123942]
I am talking about Quickly de Kreisker here, one of the hottest show jumping horses and stallions at the momentā¦[/QUOTE]
Elles ā why not just look for yourself. Do a pedigree analaysis of the top 100 sj from the list stoic posted at see how many are by a full TB stallion OR o/o a full TB mare. See what you find.
No fair finding 4 TBs generations back; we ALL know the WB was developed using TB, Arab & AA blood. We are all aware of that fact.
But NOW, in the present day, how many of these top sjās have TB blood in the 1st generation?
See for yourself. Or maybe surprise usā¦
Best to concentrate on saving the sport where the TB attributes are necessary, Eventing. You still need a horse that can think for himself in eventing. Letās keep it that way.
Elles, you should be applauding the contributions the TB has made to modern jumping and dressage. And really if you breed and use a TB mare then you should be thinking by my second generation I need to add this and by my third generation I might start having something. Fair warning, start young and start with a mare that is an athlete and has a good mind. Pedigree on the TB is great but itās not everything. The mare you have in front of you is more important. Iām not sure youāre understanding why a full TB isnāt cutting it, or indeed the half TB, in modern jumping. Itās not height, even technical to a degree, itās a combination of things that means a modern SJ must be obedient with exceptional power. Talking to breeders is great but talking to riders and going to the shows and looking at these fences and how they need to be jumped. Many top bred jumpers donāt cut it so taking a horse that isnāt bred that way is extremely difficult. These are things I should have been more aware of 10 years ago when I started. I could have gone a little differently.
But it isnāt all bad as my now 5yo was the 3rd highest price horse at the select Monart eventing sale. And 7th highest priced 4yo in the country sold through auctions last year. He also qualified for the first select SJ sale we had here last year but rightly so they took him out. Make no mistake better bred didnāt get selected but he is not a SJ. Heās been sold to a young pro in England for eventing. She raves about his mind and rideability as well as his potential as an eventer. Do I care he wonāt be jumping at the Global Champions tour in the future? Nah. Even if he had the talent, heād probably be miserable. In Eventing the things that will make him good are the things the TB brings to the table.
Stoic, great post!
Terri
Should add, the now 5yo potential event horse I bred was bought as a foal. His producer/owners did a fantastic job in bringing him along to allow him to be a decent prospect. The other part of this big game. It takes a village.
Terri
Hi Terri,
So you are saying that the horses you bred do not have it in them to become show jumpers? Have they been thoroughly tested by good riders to find out if they do or do not have it in them? I mean, on what basis are you saying that the horses you bred by using TB are more suited for eventing than they are for show jumping?
[QUOTE=Elles;8123942]
I am talking about Quickly de Kreisker here, one of the hottest show jumping horses and stallions at the momentā¦[/QUOTE]
Quickly is by Diamant X Laudanum XX, from a strong SF dame line. Las TB in this pedigree dates back to 1989, and it was a TB born 1966. Laudanum was one of those great TB that helped shape the WB horse in the 70ās and 80ās, and he produced many great broodmares, and even some good sporthorse. Quickly is from the cross of one of the greatest SF Stallion on that classical dame by a TB out of a good SF dame line. He is a prime example of that 3 genreatinos planning I think is the best way in looking how to use TB in breeding.
NO one argue the impact those great TB from the past had on the modern warmblood. But in 2015, now that we benefited from thos great TB stallions that are found in the pedigrees of the great stallions and dames, would you add TB to a horse like Quckly, why and how?
Did anyone think this post would reach 50 pages? I know that is totally off topic, but really?
http://www.vdlstud.com/paard/3/1/487/jumping-horses/herald-iii.htm
The F1 stallion Herald III is now available for europeans through VDL. He is about 72 percent xx- It will be interesting to see how and whether he is use by breeders. he looks verty refined.
Herald III is very interesting he jumped GP with several rider like Eric Lamaze and Meredith Michaels Beerbaum. His mother produced three GP jumping horses!
I realy like Herald as well. Heraldik was a great Sire, and Herald is from a very good dameline. I think he is a great alternatvie for breeders wishing to add blood.
Double.
If Iām correctly understanding what the WB breeders here are saying, breeding to a TB is unlikely to be beneficial until 2-3 generations later, so-called āgenerational breeding.ā This seems to be what the Verband directors are advocatingāinfusing TB blood now in order to improve future generations. So why are todayās breeders so reluctant to pursue this track? Is it an economic thing or do they really believe that breeding to TBs no longer provides any benefit to WBs, either now or several generations from now?
Sorry if these are dumb questions. TIA
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8125212]
If Iām correctly understanding what the WB breeders here are saying, breeding to a TB is unlikely to be beneficial until 2-3 generations later, so-called āgenerational breeding.ā This seems to be what the Verband directors are advocatingāinfusing TB blood now in order to improve future generations. So why are todayās breeders so reluctant to pursue this track? Is it an economic thing or do they really believe that breeding to TBs no longer provides any benefit to WBs, either now or several generations from now?
Sorry if these are dumb questions. TIA[/QUOTE]
There are no dumb questions! Personnaly I do not necessarily think they cannot have any benefit whatsoever. However, I think their are more and more WB stallions that would have those benefits.
