New decision in Holstein

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8125212]
If I’m correctly understanding what the WB breeders here are saying, breeding to a TB is unlikely to be beneficial until 2-3 generations later, so-called “generational breeding.” This seems to be what the Verband directors are advocating–infusing TB blood now in order to improve future generations. So why are today’s breeders so reluctant to pursue this track? Is it an economic thing or do they really believe that breeding to TBs no longer provides any benefit to WBs, either now or several generations from now?

Sorry if these are dumb questions. TIA[/QUOTE]

Most breeders do feel that they don’t need one right now hence the flippant comment of “let the neighbor do it” .

It is economic as well. It is only the very rarest of buyers that will buy a half-bred right now. They want foals by top performing stallions out of very good motherlines. The breeder has to produce what he/she can sell…it’s that simple.

[Equilibrium]

Yes they are more suited to Eventing. Natural stamina and gallop. Quick thinkers and able to think for themselves. Yes they are more suited. The do fine in dressage and SJ too. Karin Donkers rides a Vigo gelding out of a full TB mare in eventing. Could it have been a view to breeding generationally if a filly? Maybe but Vigo is a stallion that very much needs blood.

Look it’s very hard to debate this unless you really understand what is going on in the top of the sport. In 20 years the horses have really changed because of modern breeding. That is what you do with each breeding. Breed better. People aren’t going to experiment because the money it takes to reach the highest level means you start with a viable investment. The one bred to do the job. Probably there is one out there who could do it but really they are far and few between.

I do not want to see stupid changes in eventing that means the event portion is dumbed down enough for horses that just aren’t good enough to gallop and make good decisions. Don’t dumb this sport down to suit the SJ’s and dressage horses that aren’t good enough for their upper level sports. That is more concerning to me than trying to find a TB who can win consistently at 1.60.

Terri

[Equilibrium]

Have to admit I’m struggling Elles if you don’t know what a TB brings to the table for eventing, how can you justify a full TB jumping upper levels in jumping?

Terri

[Elles]

Where did I say that I do not know what a TB brings to the table for eventing?
I only asked what you did to find out why they cannot make good show jumpers.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8125324]

It is economic as well. It is only the very rarest of buyers that will buy a half-bred right now. .[/QUOTE]

This. In both dressage & show jumping markets it’s a drawback to have a full TB as either sire or dam if you want to sell the animal as a foal. They simply do not (generally) have the market or bring as much $$.

Eventing is different.

[omare]

It would be interesting to see what this guy looks like conformation wise-He will not have value as a xx sire but he won a starter handicap going 2 plus miles so he can run all day. He also placed in a stake a broad so has some residual class. Of course he might look totally counter what one wants in a sport horse.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/feodor2

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

[QUOTE=omare;8125086]
http://www.vdlstud.com/paard/3/1/487/jumping-horses/herald-iii.htm
The F1 stallion Herald III is now available for europeans through VDL. He is about 72 percent xx- It will be interesting to see how and whether he is use by breeders. he looks verty refined.[/QUOTE]

I actually wanted to use this stallion this year…but Janko from VDL told me they will not be sending the semen here, until it is “proven”…seems there is some question on the quality of the frozen. Unfortunate, as I do like him a lot.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming

[Equilibrium]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8125617]
This. In both dressage & show jumping markets it’s a drawback to have a full TB as either sire or dam if you want to sell the animal as a foal. They simply do not (generally) have the market or bring as much $$.

Eventing is different.[/QUOTE]

While it is different, you won’t be selling many event foals for a profit unless they are well related. At least over here anyway. But under saddle and showing some talent, yes. OK and 3yo’s loose. But go to a foal sale with a half bred, waste of time unless the pedigree is rock solid on the dam side. And even then it’s hit or miss. Most people here sell as foals through sales so that is where the info comes from.

Terri

[Elles]

Here it says that the Holsteiner got it’s jumping ability from crosses with Cleveland Bays and Thoroughbreds during the 19th century. Is/was the Cleveland Bay an exceptional jumper?

http://www.markt.de/pferderassen/contentId,deutsche-pferderassen-von-a-bis-z-im-ueberblick/inhalt.htm
Holsteiner
Der Holsteiner repräsentiert eine der ältesten deutschen Pferderassen. Er stammt aus den Marschen Norddeutschlands, wo er schon seit dem 14. Jahrhundert gezüchtet wird. Am Anfang kreuzte man Andalusier und Neapolitaner mit dem einheimischen Marschpferd und erhielt so ein großes und kräftiges Pferd, das in ganz Europa bekannt wurde. Im Laufe des 19. Jahrhunderts wurde der Holsteiner mit Cleveland Bays und Vollblütern gekreuzt, um die Rasse zu verfeinern. Des Weiteren war es das Ziel, ein kräftiges Zugpferd mit raumgreifender Aktion und großem Durchhaltevermögen zu züchten. Dieser Kreuzung verdankt der Holsteiner seine Sprungfähigkeit und sein Dressurtalent. Gegen Ende des Zweiten Weltkriegs nahm die Zahl der Holsteiner ab. Die Rasse wurde jedoch erfolgreich wieder aufgebaut und weiter veredelt. Besondere Unterstützung leisteten dabei die Vollblutpferde, mit deren Hilfe hochklassige Wettbewerbspferde entstanden. Er gehört zu den wenigen Rassen, die Anteil am Schweizer Halbblut haben.

The holsteiner horse represents one of the oldest German horse breeds. He comes from the marshes of Northern Germany, where he was bred since the 14th century. At the beginning, people crossed the indigenous Marsh horse with Andalusian and Neapolitan horses and so got a large and powerful horse that became known throughout Europe. In the course of the 19th century, the holsteiner horse was crossed with Cleveland bays and Thoroughbreds, to refine the breed. Furthermore, it was the goal, to breed a strong horse with extended gaits and with great staying power. The Holsteiner owes his jumping ability and dressage talent to these crosses. The number of Holsteiners decreased towards the end of the second world war. The breed was however successfully rebuilt and further refined. The Thoroughbred gave special support to develop horses which were high-class competition horses. He is one of the few breeds that are part of the Swiss half-blood.

19th century warmbloods:
Cleveland Bays:
http://rosemeadowstud.co.uk/british-...d-bay-history/

http://messybeast.com/history/draft-horses.htm
“To the north of the Humber the native breeds of cart-horses are of smaller-bulk, and generally brown, or still lighter in colour; while they are altogether more active than the black horse. This lighter build appears to be largely due to an infusion of the blood of the higher races among the horses of these districts, which is not wanting even among those employed solely for heavy draught.”

[cloudyandcallie]

Whatever they are doing in europe, they are doing it right.

I always wonder why there is such debate over the use of TBs in warmblood breeding since it’s been done for years. With success. While TBs are my favorite horses, I have a Hessen who is full of TB blood (Kentucky and French) and was a cousin of my OTTB mare (Kentucky TB).

The Germans do it right. Breeding for both jumping and dressage. There is a place for the TB in the WB breeding program. I think the problem lies with americans using just any old TB mare to breed to a WB stallion. You have to breed quality to quality to get the best. As the europeans have done and still do. So I don’t see why there are such arguments about which horse is better than the other.

[ladyj79]

I remember when this thread was called “tb kills the jump?”

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;8126373]
While it is different, you won’t be selling many event foals for a profit unless they are well related. At least over here anyway. But under saddle and showing some talent, yes. OK and 3yo’s loose. But go to a foal sale with a half bred, waste of time unless the pedigree is rock solid on the dam side. And even then it’s hit or miss. Most people here sell as foals through sales so that is where the info comes from.

Terri[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I have no idea what the market is like in IRE, but I would have thought it would be easier to sell an F-1 over there.

I breed mostly for dressage, and it’s almost a death sentence over here if you want to sell for that discipline, especially as foals.

Occasionally I’ve produced horses that I thought would do well in the lower levels of eventing (because I do like some jumper blood in there and some of my horses seemed to be nimble & forward with great gallops…characteristics I would assume would benefit an eventer.

But it would seem very few people who ride at that level buy foals. Mostly they just use OTTBs they pick up for $500-2500.

Ironic, isn’t it?

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Elles;8129571]
Here it says that the Holsteiner got it’s jumping ability from crosses with Cleveland Bays and Thoroughbreds during the 19th century. Is/was the Cleveland Bay an exceptional jumper?

http://www.markt.de/pferderassen/contentId,deutsche-pferderassen-von-a-bis-z-im-ueberblick/inhalt.htm
Holsteiner
Der Holsteiner repräsentiert eine der ältesten deutschen Pferderassen. Er stammt aus den Marschen Norddeutschlands, wo er schon seit dem 14. Jahrhundert gezüchtet wird. Am Anfang kreuzte man Andalusier und Neapolitaner mit dem einheimischen Marschpferd und erhielt so ein großes und kräftiges Pferd, das in ganz Europa bekannt wurde. Im Laufe des 19. Jahrhunderts wurde der Holsteiner mit Cleveland Bays und Vollblütern gekreuzt, um die Rasse zu verfeinern. Des Weiteren war es das Ziel, ein kräftiges Zugpferd mit raumgreifender Aktion und großem Durchhaltevermögen zu züchten. Dieser Kreuzung verdankt der Holsteiner seine Sprungfähigkeit und sein Dressurtalent. Gegen Ende des Zweiten Weltkriegs nahm die Zahl der Holsteiner ab. Die Rasse wurde jedoch erfolgreich wieder aufgebaut und weiter veredelt. Besondere Unterstützung leisteten dabei die Vollblutpferde, mit deren Hilfe hochklassige Wettbewerbspferde entstanden. Er gehört zu den wenigen Rassen, die Anteil am Schweizer Halbblut haben.

The holsteiner horse represents one of the oldest German horse breeds. He comes from the marshes of Northern Germany, where he was bred since the 14th century. At the beginning, people crossed the indigenous Marsh horse with Andalusian and Neapolitan horses and so got a large and powerful horse that became known throughout Europe. In the course of the 19th century, the holsteiner horse was crossed with Cleveland bays and Thoroughbreds, to refine the breed. Furthermore, it was the goal, to breed a strong horse with extended gaits and with great staying power. The Holsteiner owes his jumping ability and dressage talent to these crosses. The number of Holsteiners decreased towards the end of the second world war. The breed was however successfully rebuilt and further refined. The Thoroughbred gave special support to develop horses which were high-class competition horses. He is one of the few breeds that are part of the Swiss half-blood.

19th century warmbloods:
Cleveland Bays:
http://rosemeadowstud.co.uk/british-...d-bay-history/

http://messybeast.com/history/draft-horses.htm
“To the north of the Humber the native breeds of cart-horses are of smaller-bulk, and generally brown, or still lighter in colour; while they are altogether more active than the black horse. This lighter build appears to be largely due to an infusion of the blood of the higher races among the horses of these districts, which is not wanting even among those employed solely for heavy draught.”[/QUOTE]

Wow, Elles – are you just NOT GETTING IT!!! Why do you keep posting this stuff about horses born & bred decades or even centuries ago?

The TB contributed to just about ALL light riding breeds that exist today. I don’t think one poster in the whole 50+ pages of this thread EVER denied that.

But can’t you “get” that we are talking about TBs being used TODAY to improve the top quality SJ stock TODAY that is winning in competition TODAY, 2015.

Things that were “the best” 50-100 yrs ago aren’t usually going to be “the best” in current day.

Breeders are trying to ALWAYS improve. ALWAYS. Doesn’t always work that way, but that is the goal and the whole point.

To IMPROVE. If there is mounting evidence using TBs will not IMPROVE the product, breeders aren’t going to do it.

Such a simple point, yet you seem to be struggling to comprehend it.

[omare]

I think Elles is circling back to a question raised pages ago as to where the Hols jump came from and it was denied as coming from the thoroughbred - of course since that time that jump gene has been incorporated and refined and made the holsteiners’ own brand.

[Elles]

Yes, that is what I meant. Where did the jump come from, it did not all of a sudden come falling from the sky. And if the TB is only good for making horses lighter and giving them more temperament and nothing else, the jump genes must have come from the Cleveland Bay horses.

[omare]

Personally I think it likely did come from the xx but it has been cultivated and specialized and enhanced since then–the same could have been done for the xx breed even in the last 30-40 years (lets say if the AJC had a “jumping xx book”) but that did not happen and because it is a closed book still might have been difficult.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=Elles;8131147]
Yes, that is what I meant. Where did the jump come from, it did not all of a sudden come falling from the sky. And if the TB is only good for making horses lighter and giving them more temperament and nothing else, the jump genes must have come from the Cleveland Bay horses.[/QUOTE]

Like Kysteke said before, this refere to horses from more than a century ago. Their concept of the jumping ability was far different then it is now, and it is not clear what they were refering to. Did the TB brought the form, reflexes and lasticity to a mare band that was already full of power? I don’t know. I honnestly could not even tell you how big were the event in which the top horses of those days were competing for. One thing is for sure, it needed the input of blood to produce the sport horse we have today. At that time, the TB was one of the better source of blood one could find. As for the Cleveland Bay…I sure cannot telle you what the cleveland bay horses were like 100 years ago but i am sure they evolved. What were their impact then? I do not know for sure but we sure do not see them much in today’s sport.

But this is what breeding is about. It is important to understand where our horses came from, but we must breed todays mares and stallions to produce the horse that will be required for the sport in 10 years. Was the TB necessary between 100 and 50 years ago? Yes, but it was not the same horses to start with. Now we benefit from their input. Their impact was fundamental, I will agree once again with you on that. Did it improve their jumping ability? your article seems to think so and I wont argue. I will say that I don’t know what they mean by “jumping ability”, and will also say that what improved it was the cross, and not necessarly just one of the parents. The complementarity of the old type cart horse and the blood horse of the moment created a horse with better jumping abilities.

The whole debate however, again, is with the horse we have now, a horse often filled with blood and selectively bred for decades, with well established and documented dame lines, and with the results of the modern TB crossing on these horse, do we still find it necessary to keepn crossing with them? I personnaly do not think so.

And if we do, can the TB still improve the horses jumping abilities? I don’t think so either. The TB may improve many things on certain types of horses, but I do not think jumping is one of them. And I think modern wb stallions may improve those things as well as a TB would, without being detrimental to the foal’s jump.

As for your second link, it is a text about British Draught horses in the 19th century. I do not think it is relevant in the sport horses debate.

[Elles]

But how can you know for certain that show jumpers (the best or maybe on average) have been improving and are improving at the moment, keeping also in mind that the courses changed not too long ago?
It has been said that the change in courses asks for a different horse. Different in what way conformation wise and temperament wise? Or is it breed the best to the best and hope for the best?

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=Elles;8131241]
But how can you know for certain that show jumpers (the best or maybe on average) have been improving and are improving at the moment, keeping also in mind that the courses changed not too long ago?
It has been said that the change in courses asks for a different horse. Different in what way conformation wise and temperament wise? Or is it breed the best to the best and hope for the best?[/QUOTE]

How we know it improves? I would say by looking at the results, looking at the level of difficulty of the courses, looking at the horses themselves. The horses perform better at courses that are much more difficult. Conformation is genreally better than it was. The sport evolves constantly because horses and riders need new challenges. 30 or 40 years ago, it was all about power. At some point, horses an riders reached a level where hight in itself was no longer sufficient to seperate the best from the rest, and their is a limit to the hight at which they could raise the bars. They added more and more technical tests in the courses, such as more difficult combinations, tricky distances and successions of tricky distances, more technical tracks, shortening the time allowed etc. The jumps have changed. The are no longer big, full jumps with a lot of groundline that impose respect from the horses. The jumps are narrower, thiner and not as filled as they use to be. Their is almost no groundline to help the horse and riders find their distances. The poles are light and the cups are flat. A horse that is only powerfull is no longer enough. He must be powerfull enough to clear big fences either from a gallop in a jump of, but also from a very quite canter, almost still, in a short distance. He must be powerfull enough to clear the with of a large oxer from a very close distance, but still be balanced enough to get under him at the last stride and jump same oxer from a longer distance, at galop. BUt that power is not enough, he must be quick enough to take his front legs out of the way at close distance, and reactive enough to change lenght of stride within one stride if to reach a longer distance at a fence which is one or two stride from a very tight turn or in a long two stride combination where he had to lend close to the first one. He must be courageous enough to jump fences that are at his maximum capacity (wether it is at 1m20 or 1m60), but still be carefull enough not to touch the very light rails on the flat cupps that are unforgiving. He must remain carefull even when the jumps are not impressive and do not impose as much respect as the big, filled fences of the past.

The horses improved, in my opinion, because they are much more complete athletes as they use to be. Selective breeding will cause the horses to continue to improve. They will be more and more succesfull with todays challenges, and the designers will have to find new challenges to keep the competition alive. This is how the wheel spins.

I am not sure excatly what your question is about.

[Elles]

Well, I am wondering how the change in the courses changed the breeding. Certain families / lines should be declining and certain bloodlines should be getting more to the foreground.