New decision in Holstein

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=Elles;8131410]
Well, I am wondering how the change in the courses changed the breeding. Certain families / lines should be declining and certain bloodlines should be getting more to the foreground.[/QUOTE]

It may have happened, you are right. But, although I may have interchanged both words many times in my posts, both sport and breeding have evolved and not changed. As for the sport, caracteristics have not dramaticaly changed, the difficulties became more difficult, and more importance was put on some issues and less on other. It remained the same sport. This reflects in breeding in a way that new abilities did not necessarly have to be added in the horses. The existing abilities add to be improved. I have difficulty to put my thought in english on that but I hope people understands me, or at least one did and can put it in clearer words!

As an example, an old type WB horse may becaume, over generations, more supple, improve its balance, become more reactive etc with selective breeding. This happens on a relatively long period of time. You do not change the horse, you select certain traits, and improve them. If, for example, I started a reining horse breeding program with Hanoverian mares. I would have to bring in the mix abilities that are not present in the horse. The balance is totaly different. The cattle instinct is innexistant. The ability to stop on a dime and spin are not their at all. I would have to change completely my horse.

So this being said (probably not in the clearest way), I think that a good sport horse line has what it takes. If carefully bred over the generations, by a concientious breeder who understand the sport, but also understand its lines, will continously evolve with the sport as it will keep its strenght, and improve its weakness.

[Cumano]

And another thing I find important, and this is only an opinion, is that improving the sporthorse does not imply necessarly reaching an uniformity in the type of horse bred. Their are many pats for reaching the ideal horse. What I like about the sport horse, is that the ideal for a sport horse is mostly based on athletic and performance criterias (and of course genetics). It is not like breeding a labrador, where the standard is mostly about the phenotype. Of course with sport horse, the conformation is important, but when studying the conformation criterias, they are all based on functionnal requirements. And their interpretation may lead to having two horses with great conformation, but of two completly different types.

That is where I think the understanding of the breeder of its lines is so important. A breeder cannot breed blindly his mares to reach a specific ideal described in a book. He must understand what makes each line succesfull, how, and work with that. I’ll take for example some belgian dame lines I dream about at night. Many international horses have come up from them, which are very big, powerfull horses, but also very supple and reactive. Their breeders know their lines and why they are great. It would probably be a mistake to breed those lines trying to produce a quick, light, very modern looking horse like Barron or Hickstead. You may, in the way, loose what made your line great, trying to reach an ideal that doesn’t suits their way of doing things. But the good breeder, if he thinks that his mares lack, lets say, quickness in the front, will find a stallion with a quick front end, but which also shows the same qualities that made the dame line so great.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8131475]
It may have happened, you are right. But, although I may have interchanged both words many times in my posts, both sport and breeding have evolved and not changed. As for the sport, caracteristics have not dramaticaly changed, the difficulties became more difficult, and more importance was put on some issues and less on other. It remained the same sport. This reflects in breeding in a way that new abilities did not necessarly have to be added in the horses. The existing abilities add to be improved. I have difficulty to put my thought in english on that but I hope people understands me, or at least one did and can put it in clearer words!

As an example, an old type WB horse may becaume, over generations, more supple, improve its balance, become more reactive etc with selective breeding. This happens on a relatively long period of time. You do not change the horse, you select certain traits, and improve them. If, for example, I started a reining horse breeding program with Hanoverian mares. I would have to bring in the mix abilities that are not present in the horse. The balance is totaly different. The cattle instinct is innexistant. The ability to stop on a dime and spin are not their at all. I would have to change completely my horse.

So this being said (probably not in the clearest way), I think that a good sport horse line has what it takes. If carefully bred over the generations, by a concientious breeder who understand the sport, but also understand its lines, will continously evolve with the sport as it will keep its strenght, and improve its weakness.[/QUOTE]

Cumano, I understand about the language barrier, but you contradict yourself in several of your points:

1. “As for the sport, caracteristics have not dramaticaly changed, the difficulties became more difficult, and more importance was put on some issues and less on other.” If this is the case–and it seems that it is–the characteristics HAVE changed dramatically and thus the sport is the same in name only.

2. “As an example, an old type WB horse may becaume, over generations, more supple, improve its balance, become more reactive etc with selective breeding. This happens on a relatively long period of time. You do not change the horse, you select certain traits, and improve them.” If you’ve changed the old type WB over generations, making it more supple, improving balance, making more reactive, you HAVE changed the horse. One only has to look at the WBs from 30-40 (or more) years ago to see that.

Maybe I’ve misunderstood what you’re trying to say. One bit of advice: it would really help if you would edit/spell-check your posts prior to posting.

At any rate, I appreciate your thoughtful posts on this topic. Thanks!

[ahf]

It mystifies me why people are picking on Cumano for posting in a non-native language. This is the second time it’s happened on this thread. Spell-check? Seriously? Do you keep multiple language spell-checkers installed on your computer?

He types in sentences, and paragraphs. He does a better job posting in a non-native language than many here do in their first. He is nearly fluent.

I’ve never seen fannie mae or several other non-English speakers taken to task by the grammar police/spelling police when they post. And when fannie mae posts i need a 20 minutes, a glass of wine and a notepad to decipher her point. I would never dream of telling her… get a grip and express yourself better.

As someone who has always had trouble with other languages, I harbor great respect for the multi-lingual. And i hate it when they are nit-picked by folks (and most likely those folks are not linguists themselves).

[omare]

“Well, I am wondering how the change in the courses changed the breeding. Certain families / lines should be declining and certain bloodlines should be getting more to the foreground.”

Well I wonder for WB purposes to a certain extent if that has not happened? If you look at the Hol verband stallion list you can seen the domination of the C line(s) the shrinking of the A line (alme)(through Acord?) and L line-- the expansion of another source of the Alme (to add blooded traits) through the B (balouBRD) and Q’s(QDR) so it looks to be a flux and flow. And of course I am assuming some of the lines may work better through the dam (so may still be present but through the mare sire lines).

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=ahf;8131669]
It mystifies me why people are picking on Cumano for posting in a non-native language. This is the second time it’s happened on this thread. Spell-check? Seriously? Do you keep multiple language spell-checkers installed on your computer?

He types in sentences, and paragraphs. He does a better job posting in a non-native language than many here do in their first. He is nearly fluent.

I’ve never seen fannie mae or several other non-English speakers taken to task by the grammar police/spelling police when they post. And when fannie mae posts i need a 20 minutes, a glass of wine and a notepad to decipher her point. I would never dream of telling her… get a grip and express yourself better.

As someone who has always had trouble with other languages, I harbor great respect for the multi-lingual. And i hate it when they are nit-picked by folks (and most likely those folks are not linguists themselves).[/QUOTE]

WOW, over-react much? It was only a suggestion, not trying to nit-pick, not the grammar/spelling police, just thought it might help.

Maybe you should have a glass of wine right now.

[out_west]

Zipperfoot, look in the mirror. Cumano adds very thoughtful posts IMHO. Cumano very carefully stated that these traits have evolved, as opposed to changed “dramatically”. I see no contradiction. Infact, that is the heart of this topic. Do we need a rapid “change” by infusion of blood or not? Do warmbloods have enough blood traits (whatever they may be) to not need more infusion. A rapid change requires infusion of traits not widely seen in the population, but there is enough genetic diversity within a breed, that selection alone can evolve the breed.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8131622]
Cumano, I understand about the language barrier, but you contradict yourself in several of your points:

1. “As for the sport, caracteristics have not dramaticaly changed, the difficulties became more difficult, and more importance was put on some issues and less on other.” If this is the case–and it seems that it is–the characteristics HAVE changed dramatically and thus the sport is the same in name only.

2. “As an example, an old type WB horse may becaume, over generations, more supple, improve its balance, become more reactive etc with selective breeding. This happens on a relatively long period of time. You do not change the horse, you select certain traits, and improve them.” If you’ve changed the old type WB over generations, making it more supple, improving balance, making more reactive, you HAVE changed the horse. One only has to look at the WBs from 30-40 (or more) years ago to see that.

Maybe I’ve misunderstood what you’re trying to say. One bit of advice: it would really help if you would edit/spell-check your posts prior to posting.

At any rate, I appreciate your thoughtful posts on this topic. Thanks![/QUOTE]

I’ll do my best to check my writting. Honestly my English is better than what I demonstrate here, but I do not necessarily take time to review as I should. I agree reading my posts should be pleasant to everyone.

What I was trying to say, and maybe the sense does not translate well in English, but I see a difference in meaning between change and evolution. Evolution to me is taking a caracteristic that is already present, and either improve it or worsen it, give it more or less importance etc. When I refer to change, I refer to trying to create or add something new, hence my example of trying to breed a reining horse from an hanoverian mare base. Same with sport. The essence of showjumping remained the same. A sport of power, speed, agility and courage. These caracteristics have always remained, but their relative importance have shifted, and the level of difficulty has increased.

That is the difference I was trying to make between “evolution” and “change”. Breeders should think in terms of evolution, and not in terms of change.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=out west;8131724]
Zipperfoot, look in the mirror. Cumano adds very thoughtful posts IMHO. Cumano very carefully stated that these traits have evolved, as opposed to changed “dramatically”. I see no contradiction. Infact, that is the heart of this topic. Do we need a rapid “change” by infusion of blood or not? Do warmbloods have enough blood traits (whatever they may be) to not need more infusion. A rapid change requires infusion of traits not widely seen in the population, but there is enough genetic diversity within a breed, that selection alone can evolve the breed.[/QUOTE]

First of all, what am I looking for in the mirror??? (I try to avoid looking because the wrinkles and gray hair scare me.)

Reread my post–I acknowledged that Cumano posted thoughtful posts (and thanked him/her).

My point wasn’t whether WBs needed a rapid change etc, only that if they have evolved so much, then the horse (breed/type?) has been changed over the course of many years. Definitely not up to me to tell the WB breeders what to do.

If I’ve misinterpreted what Cumano meant, then it’s up to him/her (not you) to tell me that.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8131760]
I’ll do my best to check my writting. Honestly my English is better than what I demonstrate here, but I do not necessarily take time to review as I should. I agree reading my posts should be pleasant to everyone.

What I was trying to say, and maybe the sense does not translate well in English, but I see a difference in meaning between change and evolution. Evolution to me is taking a caracteristic that is already present, and either improve it or worsen it, give it more or less importance etc. When I refer to change, I refer to trying to create or add something new, hence my example of trying to breed a reining horse from an hanoverian mare base. Same with sport. The essence of showjumping remained the same. A sport of power, speed, agility and courage. These caracteristics have always remained, but their relative importance have shifted, and the level of difficulty has increased.

That is the difference I was trying to make between “evolution” and “change”. Breeders should think in terms of evolution, and not in terms of change.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you’re trying to say–I think.

In light of what you’ve said, is it correct that you consider the modern WB to be evolved, not changed, from the original WBs (light carriage/work/military horses) of long ago?

Then again, using your example of trying to breed a reining horse using a Hanoverian mare, one can argue that reining horse maneuvers (fast stops/turns, lead changes etc) are already present in all horses (just watch them playing in the pasture), just better developed in some than others. So using the evolution breeding strategy (that is, selecting for the desired traits), wouldn’t it be possible to eventually breed reining horses from WB mares? Admittedly, it would take multiple generations and the right outcrosses, but isn’t that what was done to evolve the modern WB?

Interesting discussion. Thanks for your input.

[Cumano]

Then again, using your example of trying to breed a reining horse using a Hanoverian mare, one can argue that reining horse maneuvers (fast stops/turns, lead changes etc) are already present in all horses (just watch them playing in the pasture), just better developed in some than others. So using the evolution breeding strategy (that is, selecting for the desired traits), wouldn’t it be possible to eventually breed reining horses from WB mares? Admittedly, it would take multiple generations and the right outcrosses, but isn’t that what was done to evolve the modern WB?

I have to agree with what you say. Anytime you compare the result of a long evolution with the original individual, the difference will be very important. This would probably be striking if we looked at humans ancestors (for those of us who believe in the theory of evolution). But I was thinking with a breeders point of view, ie thinking in terms of 3 or 4 generations.

I have started with great dame lines that I like, that are proven for the showjumping ring, and that are generally well suited for the job. I know what I want to achieve with my lines when I am planning my breedings. I will try to find stallions that will improve the specific points I want to improve, but that will maintain the qualities of my mares. I don’t think about changing them, I think about ways to improve some of their weakness, in a way that will be complementary with what made the success of the line. In doing so, it may take a lot of small improvements to reach my ideal horse, but I will not risk loosing over one generation all the traits that I, and the previous breeders who built my dame lines before me, have been able to consolidate in that line. That is what I meant when I said that breeders need to think in terms of evolution and not in terms of change. Maybe in 50 years, when I will be between 72 and 85 years old :winkgrin:, the horses in my barn will be much different from those I have today. But if I play my cards well, every generation until then will have remained up to date with the requirements of the sport of its era.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8131862]
I have to agree with what you say. Anytime you compare the result of a long evolution with the original individual, the difference will be very important. This would probably be striking if we looked at humans ancestors (for those of us who believe in the theory of evolution). But I was thinking with a breeders point of view, ie thinking in terms of 3 or 4 generations.

I have started with great dame lines that I like, that are proven for the showjumping ring, and that are generally well suited for the job. I know what I want to achieve with my lines when I am planning my breedings. I will try to find stallions that will improve the specific points I want to improve, but that will maintain the qualities of my mares. I don’t think about changing them, I think about ways to improve some of their weakness, in a way that will be complementary with what made the success of the line. In doing so, it may take a lot of small improvements to reach my ideal horse, but I will not risk loosing over one generation all the traits that I, and the previous breeders who built my dame lines before me, have been able to consolidate in that line. That is what I meant when I said that breeders need to think in terms of evolution and not in terms of change. Maybe in 50 years, when I will be between 72 and 85 years old :winkgrin:, the horses in my barn will be much different from those I have today. But if I play my cards well, every generation until then will have remained up to date with the requirements of the sport of its era.[/QUOTE]

And in my opinion, despite breed preferences, that’s what our goal as breeders should be–that each generation be a little bit better than the previous one. Best of luck to you!

[skydy]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8125029]
Did anyone think this post would reach 50 pages? I know that is totally off topic, but really?[/QUOTE]

It’s an interesting subject. :yes:

[drkarins]

Perhaps not totally on topic but an interesting read nonetheless…
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/04/jan-luneberg-the-view-from-holstein/

[Cumano]

Interesting read drkarins!

[Elles]

It is sometimes difficult to tell other people your thoughts when you have so many experiences, thoughts and intuition at play.
About a year ago I spoke with one of the two breeding advisors of a Dutch studbook. This man has been involved with warmbloods and especially jumpers for many years. He is in his fifties and lives close to Germany and Belgium and apart from many Dutch horses he also knows a lot about German and Belgium horses. This man could forget more of his knowledge than most could ever learn. He also knows a lot about Thoroughbreds. He told me he had seen Favoritas xx jump and he had been VERY impressed by this horse.
He also said to me that often from using TB something good comes out of it. Maybe not always in the first generation but something good most often comes from it. He meant also still in this day and age.

[Elles]

Thank you Cumano for sharing your views with us!
It is always interesting to learn about the views of others, like also in that article from the horse magazine website.

[Elles]

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/04/world-cup-jumping-of-blood-books-and-daily-standings/

[Equilibrium]

You will find many people have good things to say about TB’s. But in using them in modern day breeding, unless you want to promote them yourself, you’re up against it from a selling standpoint before potential is realised. I put my money where my mouth is. And after 12 years it’s coming good. And it quite a miracle it is coming good. I say that because if you don’t breed, produce, and are a pro yourself you must involve other people. Most people have to make a living along the way. So you stick with the winning formula and better your chances.

That is all. Takes a few experiments, generations, and doing right by the ones that aren’t good enough to go forward.

If you pm me Elles I’ll tell you where you can follow one of my homebreds on FB. Not my page so don’t want to blast it all over here.

Terri

[Elles]

Because earlier we discussed national hunt racing I have taken an other look at that.
Bobs Worth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3q6tWuMokk
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10596030&blood=10&quota=
I have made some stills of that video:
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-B8K6QYTP.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-JGJVOXQV.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-OBFPRHJC.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-OV8H7OIC.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-FXGNZ8NP.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-EXXUNGKY.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Hunt_racing
• Chase -
o run over distances of 2 - 4½ miles.
o over obstacles called fences that are a minimum of 4½ feet high.

By the way this horse is a bit related to Favoritas xx:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQXgr6x5Bw8