New decision in Holstein

[omare]

I think the challenge for some types of thoroughbred jumpers is being able to generate the necessary bouncy energized slow-enough canter needed in the show ring from which to jump from. Some thoroughbreds seem to generate the quick spring energy for the jump/leap covering a massive amount of ground from speed.

A relative’s horses who jumped successfully in 1.6 m classes (and was a lot of blood) did not do so from a “dead” slow canter, but rather a canter that contained lots of energy which seemed to transfer to an cat like spring. He was always the fastest.

I am not sure all successful “jump” comes from the exact same bio-mechanics? Does the cat like -light-effortless spring come from the same mechanics as the “power” spring? The latter I think of Berlin and Cumano types-the former right now …Tequila? (I notice at times she looks like she is ready to go side-wise! All WBs of course but different.)

[Elles]

http://thisishorseracing.com/news/index.php/this-is-horse-racing/1682-md-hunt-cup-timber-classic-takes-practice
http://usercontent1.hubimg.com/5728422_f520.jpg
http://www.aintree-grand-national.net/grand-national-fences.php
http://www.grandnational.org.uk/the-chair.jpg

[omare]

The hunt cup course is literally 5 miles from where I live-so i know the xx can jump big verticals from a good pace for sure!

[Lord_Helpus]

For horses who have a high % of TB blood, just look at what breeders in S Germany are doing. They are breeding WB mares to TB sires and getting the “German Sport Horse”.

Michael Jung came to Rolex from Germany with 2 German Sport Horses. He came in 1st and 3rd. And this is not the first time these horses have dominated the competition.

Evidently Michael Jung has a number of German Sport Horses he is bringing up through the ranks.

The mare is Fisherrocana
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/709903

and the gelding is La Biosthetique Sam
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/597343

The Germans are breeding exactly what you all are talking about; the people who believed in cross breeding to TB’s started their own registry which is why you do not see them in the better known registries.

Could it be that the Holsteiner people are looking to the South and noticing what nice horses are being bred down there?

http://www.pferde-sachsen-thueringen.de/en/the-horse-breeding-association-of-saxony-thueringen-ev/rassen/german-sport-horse.html

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8133807]
For horses who have a high % of TB blood, just look at what breeders in S Germany are doing. They are breeding WB mares to TB sires and getting the “German Sport Horse”.

Michael Jung came to Rolex from Germany with 2 German Sport Horses. He came in 1st and 3rd. And this is not the first time these horses have dominated the competition.

Evidently Michael Jung has a number of German Sport Horses he is bringing up through the ranks.

The mare is Fisherrocana
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/709903

and the gelding is La Biosthetique Sam
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/597343

The Germans are breeding exactly what you all are talking about; the people who believed in cross breeding to TB’s started their own registry which is why you do not see them in the better known registries?

Could it be that the Holsteiner people are looking to the South and noticing what nice horses are being bred down there?[/QUOTE]

Umm, the German Sport Horse is a German registry that was created from the merger of about 5 small registries about three years ago. From what I gather, it works just like all the registries. They aren’t any more into using TBs than any of the other registries AFAIK.

The merged registries are Brandenburg, Sachsen-Anhalt, Sachsen, and
Thuringen. IIRC, all these were former East Germany, but I could be wrong.

Sam is Baden-Wurtemburg, Not DSP. Fischerrocana is DSP. It appears that the Jung’s home area is BadWu. He gets his horses from all over Germany it appears

Anyone know what FST stands for? Is the DSP equivalent of TSF or NRW?

[omare]

Maybe there is more stress on blood–Below is a version of the mission statement for that breed book…interesting at least.

http://www.pferde-sachsen-thueringen.de/en/the-horse-breeding-association-of-saxony-thueringen-ev/rassen/german-sport-horse.html

"A Partner for all disciplines
The Change in breeding to a modern sport horse started in Saxony before more than 40 years. In the first instance this happened because of the input of English thoroughbreds.

Furthermore, riding horse stallions and Trakehner were used. For that reasons the Saxon breeding district possess a consolidated foundation of mares, which stand out for attributes like, health, fertility, a strong character and willingness to perform.

The Breeding program of the ?German Sport Horse? , how riding horses are called since 2002, is practised in cooperation with the Breeding associations of Saxony ? Anhalt and Berlin ? Brandenburg.

The foundation of mares (ca. 6500) that came out of that breeding program is continuously improved in sportive, locomotive and elasticity aspects, by the input of modern and blood stamped stallions.

In combination with the previous described attributes of the mare foundation desirable products are developed, which undersign that by adequate success.

The cooperation with the Saxon stud Moritzburg and the Saxon main stud Graditz turns out to be a huge benefit for the breeding of riding horses.

If necessary it would be possible to direct the breeding program also independent from economical interests, by buying, leasing and upbringing of interesting stallions.

[vineyridge]

All German registries used the English TB to upgrade their horses. This registry maybe got started a bit late because of being in East Germany.

[omare]

So maybe the blood is closer up in the pedigree?

[Manni01]

I don’t really understand the discussion right now. The German Sport horse was created through a cooperation of several former East German registries. BUT these registries were only created after the wall came down. During the East German period there was only one East German registry. Das Edle Warmblut der DDR. It aimed mainly for Export in order to bring some West money into the DDR. And they used a lot of (very good) TB stallions for their breeding program. But after the wall came down in 1989 they bred the same way like they did in the West. Not too many TBs… So I don’t think the blood is closer up in the pedigree…

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8134041]
I don’t really understand the discussion right now. The German Sport horse was created through a cooperation of several former East German registries. BUT these registries were only created after the wall came down. During the East German period there was only one East German registry. Das Edle Warmblut der DDR. It aimed mainly for Export in order to bring some West money into the DDR. And they used a lot of (very good) TB stallions for their breeding program. But after the wall came down in 1989 they bred the same way like they did in the West. Not too many TBs… So I don’t think the blood is closer up in the pedigree…[/QUOTE]

Thank you , Manni01, for clarifying the history of the former East German area registries.

[omare]

yes thanks

[Elles]

But how much advantage is there from the pace when jumping a vertical?
http://cdn.spectator.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/166072805-600x397.jpg
Of course I can see the advantage of jumping a wide and low fence with speed. But the higher the fence gets and the higher the speed with such a fence, the flatter the jump becomes and also the chance of failure to jump, is it not?
Favoritas xx did not have a lot of trouble jumping a technical course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NcGf5Dw8_E

[QUOTE=omare;8133777]
The hunt cup course is literally 5 miles from where I live-so i know the xx can jump big verticals from a good pace for sure![/QUOTE]

[omare]

Yes rails are taken out a plenty over the Hunt Cup course because of that as the hunt cup is jumped from a gallop not a canter-- two different gaits.

Pace does creates energy. it also allows a horse to jump from a “gappy” distance. And many xx types like to jump from a longer spot it seems. FWIW One person tried to make an ex- Hunt Cup horse into a GP jumper --he was sent to the Chapots and he did not have the necessary canter (cadence) or brain/temperamen for it. (edited to add–at least not able to get to the top of the game–I believe he won some open speed classes)

This is all just a possible inaccurate generalization on my part I know. Favoritas is lovely but he seems to be one of the few xx out there jumping GPs. And he does seem to make a little “run” at his fences–three strides out-- and his head is postioned to keep him on his hocks it seems (my ammie-non expert view ) Coconut Grove also created his own energy for those big fences – I have a general perhap inaccurate perception that the blooded horses (and their riders) tend to use (captured energy) from pace and quickness to enhance the jump.
(of opposite of this is the WB that has huge bascule but seems to be limited at jumping across their fences… I think we have seen those types.)

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=Elles;8135601]
But how much advantage is there from the pace when jumping a vertical?[/QUOTE]

Depends on the horse.

My TB has a massive amount of raw scope and can clear pretty much anything from a gap. Carry a gallop to a vertical and it doesn’t matter how tall it is - not an issue. So for him there’s a huge advantage to carrying pace to a vertical.

But make it a massive square, wide oxer and suddenly we’re in trouble because he struggles with rocking back and “curling” over the jump. And when it’s wide enough you lose the ability to take off from that gap without hitting the peak of the jump too soon and coming down on the back rail with either hind legs or stomach. Now add in massive/square/wide oxer heading into a tight one or two stride and it’s a whole 'nother story all over again.

So again, I would say that you cannot compare the hunt cup races to jumping a 1.60m show jumping course. They’re really two completely different sports with different requirements of the horse.

And omare - like your relative, my TB is almost always one of the fastest in the first round. He gets across the ground surprisingly fast, which makes up for the fact that he’s not highly efficient over the jumps.

[omare]

I called him the remote control horse as the owner once yelled jump as he went through a huge triple w a (5 or 6 (?) foot spread–and upon landing he promptly ran off with the rider for the rest of the course–fast and clear (Devon Gold Cup) – his mom said go-(he thought)–I do not think the rider ever knew what had happened-but she was able to marginally control the energy created in order to go clear!

[Adela]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8133827]
Umm, the German Sport Horse is a German registry that was created from the merger of about 5 small registries about three years ago. From what I gather, it works just like all the registries. They aren’t any more into using TBs than any of the other registries AFAIK.

The merged registries are Brandenburg, Sachsen-Anhalt, Sachsen, and
Thuringen. IIRC, all these were former East Germany, but I could be wrong.

Sam is Baden-Wurtemburg, Not DSP. Fischerrocana is DSP. It appears that the Jung’s home area is BadWu. He gets his horses from all over Germany it appears

Anyone know what FST stands for? Is the DSP equivalent of TSF or NRW?[/QUOTE]

FST is equivalent to TSF, NRW, FRH …
(Förderverein Sachsen-Thüringen -> Sponsorship of the registry)

Since beginning of 2015, the German Sporthorse is bred not only in the four original registries Brandenburg, Saxony-Anhalt, Saxony and Thuringia, but also in the other southern german registries Baden-Wuerttemberg, Rhineland-Pfalz-Saar and Bavaria (foals are registered as German Sporthorses).

[Adela]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8133827]
Umm, the German Sport Horse is a German registry that was created from the merger of about 5 small registries about three years ago. From what I gather, it works just like all the registries. They aren’t any more into using TBs than any of the other registries AFAIK.

The merged registries are Brandenburg, Sachsen-Anhalt, Sachsen, and
Thuringen. IIRC, all these were former East Germany, but I could be wrong.

Sam is Baden-Wurtemburg, Not DSP. Fischerrocana is DSP. It appears that the Jung’s home area is BadWu. He gets his horses from all over Germany it appears

Anyone know what FST stands for? Is the DSP equivalent of TSF or NRW?[/QUOTE]

FST is equivalent to TSF, NRW, FRH …
(Förderverein Sachsen-Thüringen -> Sponsorship of the registry)

Since beginning of 2015, the German Sporthorse is bred not only in the four original registries Brandenburg, Saxony-Anhalt, Saxony and Thuringia, but also in the other southern german registries Baden-Wuerttemberg, Rhineland-Pfalz-Saar and Bavaria (foals are registered as German Sporthorses).

[Elles]

To me these horses do not look like they are not strong enough:
https://www.pinterest.com/billylover0799/thoroughbreds/
This does not look very technical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytySYcZkVo0

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Elles;8137808]
To me these horses do not look like they are not strong enough:
https://www.pinterest.com/billylover0799/thoroughbreds/
This does not look very technical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytySYcZkVo0[/QUOTE]

Opinions are like a$$holes in the horse world, everyone has one. So put your money and time where your mouth is and relax on trying to convince everyone else, as others already have their opinions.
People on this board tend to have money invested in breeding programs/horses already. This really is going no where with the interjections of pictures of Tb’s and pedigrees.
There are people on this board with Tb’s and Tb stallions that have done well, why don’t you use your time to prove your point instead of wanting everyone to agree with you?

[Elles]

If I would come up with one good horse, people will say it is a one off and does not prove anything. So I would have to come up with more than one horse and I do not have the budget for that.