New decision in Holstein

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Elles;8138886]
If I would come up with one good horse, people will say it is a one off and does not prove anything. So I would have to come up with more than one horse and I do not have the budget for that.[/QUOTE]

Why do you care what people think?
It is about producing good horses, so if you produce even one, then that is a win.

There are some top horses bred in Holland, why don’t you go to the KWPN meetings and run your idea’s by them? They might have some knowledge to share with you first hand, I know I would love to have that type of learning resource in my backyard and it is a much better venue than an online BB.

[Elles]

Well I have been in touch with one important KWPN person and he is very enthusiastic about the use of TB horses within the KWPN studbook.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Elles;8139391]
Well I have been in touch with one important KWPN person and he is very enthusiastic about the use of TB horses within the KWPN studbook.[/QUOTE]

Then please tell us how many foals were sired in Holland last year by TB Stallions. Thanks !

[Elles]

Well, it is the same as with the Holsteiner studbook. The leaders of the studbook can be pro TB but if the breeders and users of the horses are not in favour of it, not a lot happens. And that is also the reason why there are hardly any breeding TB stallions to be found in Holland. But that does not say something about the TB horse per se but more about the people. I know you think the people know better than the leaders of the studbook(s). But do not forget that Holland hardly has any history with TB’s whatsoever. In contrast with America, that always used to be a big producer and user of TB’s. In Holland a TB has never been in any way, shape or form seen as a horse that one can use for riding. We never really have been polo players, nor (fox) hunters, nor a real eventing nation, we have never been into using horses on herding cattle, have never really been into speed events (exept trotting races). I think in a way the same goes for Germany and I think also France has never really seen the TB as a horse one could use for anything other than racing. Where the US has proved many times that that is nonsence.
I have one three year old TB and time will tell if he is a good riding horse and what are his strenghts and weaknesses. I will try to give him as much chance to prove himself as possible.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Elles;8140542]
Well, it is the same as with the Holsteiner studbook. The leaders of the studbook can be pro TB but if the breeders and users of the horses are not in favour of it, not a lot happens. And that is also the reason why there are hardly any breeding TB stallions to be found in Holland. But that does not say something about the TB horse per se but more about the people. I know you think the people know better than the leaders of the studbook(s). But do not forget that Holland hardly has any history with TB’s whatsoever. In contrast with America, that always used to be a big producer and user of TB’s. In Holland a TB has never been in any way, shape or form seen as a horse that one can use for riding. We never really have been polo players, nor (fox) hunters, nor a real eventing nation, we have never been into using horses on herding cattle, have never really been into speed events (exept trotting races). I think in a way the same goes for Germany and I think also France has never really seen the TB as a horse one could use for anything other than racing. Where the US has proved many times that that is nonsence.
I have one three year old TB and time will tell if he is a good riding horse and what are his strenghts and weaknesses. I will try to give him as much chance to prove himself as possible.[/QUOTE]

Ok thanks Elles…now this is where the conversation needs to go.

You believe in your TB horse. That’s great ! Now you need to go out and see if your belief was correct. Good luck to you ! I will always shake the hand of anyone with a good horse no matter the pedigree

[Elles]

http://horsejunkiesunited.com/?p=88202
On the progression of the sport:
Things are very different now than they were a decade ago. Breeders are breeding very different types of horses… we still call them warmbloods, but they are really more like thoroughbreds. The horses need to be way lighter than they used to be. Before when you went to see a horse all people would talk about is how scopey and powerful they were. Now, this really doesn’t mean anything- you need a horse that has blood, that’s really light, and that gets in the air easy- it has to be effortless. Scope isn’t determined by power anymore, but instead is how light and agile they are. Some of the best horses in the world don’t have a lot of power, but they are agile and have a lot of blood; they don’t give-up when they see a fence.
The modern horses would not have excelled a 15 years ago; Hickstead would not have done well, the material would have been too heavy for him, and the construction wrong.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Elles;8141053]
http://horsejunkiesunited.com/?p=88202
On the progression of the sport:
Things are very different now than they were a decade ago. Breeders are breeding very different types of horses… we still call them warmbloods, but they are really more like thoroughbreds. The horses need to be way lighter than they used to be. Before when you went to see a horse all people would talk about is how scopey and powerful they were. Now, this really doesn’t mean anything- you need a horse that has blood, that’s really light, and that gets in the air easy- it has to be effortless. Scope isn’t determined by power anymore, but instead is how light and agile they are. Some of the best horses in the world don’t have a lot of power, but they are agile and have a lot of blood; they don’t give-up when they see a fence.
The modern horses would not have excelled a 15 years ago; Hickstead would not have done well, the material would have been too heavy for him, and the construction wrong.[/QUOTE]

And you have told us nothing in this statement we don’t already know.

Right now…myself and many others don’t feel the need for a TB Stallion because most WB stallions out there are breeding modern and blooded enough. There will most likely come a day when a TB Stallion is needed again ,but that day is not today.

[stoicfish]

The modern horses would not have excelled a 15 years ago; Hickstead would not have done well, the material would have been too heavy for him, and the construction wrong.

He would be 19 this year and he started winning 9 years ago, so I very much disagree with this one authors opinion. The courses did not change that much in 6 years between the prediction and his first big wins with Eric.
I have been going to Spruce Meadows for the last 30 years and while there are changes, I think horses that won it 20 years ago would be competitive today.

And they are not more like Tb’s then Wb’s. They are Wb’s. That is the whole point you keep missing and I can’t tell if your being extremely obtuse or you do not have much experience with horses and are having trouble with this idea.
What is your experience with Wb’s personally? Have you actually bred any or been apart of the breeding process for jumping horses?
Not dismissing your opinion if the answers are no, but you might want to acknowledge that you have much to learn and when you do, more of this topic will make sense.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Elles;8140542]
Well, it is the same as with the Holsteiner studbook. The leaders of the studbook can be pro TB but if the breeders and users of the horses are not in favour of it, not a lot happens. And that is also the reason why there are hardly any breeding TB stallions to be found in Holland. But that does not say something about the TB horse per se but more about the people. I know you think the people know better than the leaders of the studbook(s).[/QUOTE]

I think you are reading too much into the Verband’s recent statements with the use of TBs in today’s breeding programs. They are not “pro TB.” What the powers that be have said is that there MAY be some use for certain TBs on a very limited basis.

It’s also somewhat insulting at best, or at least passive aggressive on your part to infer that the Verband somehow knows more than breeders and therefore we should all goose-step in line behind whatever they tell us to do. Nothing can be further from the truth.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8141306]
And they are not more like Tb’s then Wb’s. They are Wb’s. That is the whole point you keep missing and I can’t tell if your being extremely obtuse or you do not have much experience with horses and are having trouble with this idea.
What is your experience with Wb’s personally? Have you actually bred any or been apart of the breeding process for jumping horses?
Not dismissing your opinion if the answers are no, but you might want to acknowledge that you have much to learn and when you do, more of this topic will make sense.[/QUOTE]

Thank you…I’m not sure it will get through, but it was worth a shot.

[Elles]

The truth lies, most of the time, in the middle.

[QUOTE=Go Fish;8141322]
I think you are reading too much into the Verband’s recent statements with the use of TBs in today’s breeding programs. They are not “pro TB.” What the powers that be have said is that there MAY be some use for certain TBs on a very limited basis.

It’s also somewhat insulting at best, or at least passive aggressive on your part to infer that the Verband somehow knows more than breeders and therefore we should all goose-step in line behind whatever they tell us to do. Nothing can be further from the truth.[/QUOTE]

[omare]

I do not think Elles is being insulting, etc. I think it has already been suggested by knowing people that the breed book may have longer term goals/concerns then that of an individual breeder – Personally I think no one will know until it does or does not happen whether xx blood will be needed directly added again–I think perhaps the Verband is playing it safe and as others have indicated–may have opened the book to increase the chances of finding a good one in case it is needed.

[Elles]

I only meant to say that there are two lines of thought in this.
And I only quoted what Eric Lamaze said. I think it suprising that some people say that today’s show jumper needs a lot of strenght where he says that scope is no longer determined by power.
But as someone tells me in a PM I just read, maybe it is really true that there is no use in discussing these matters with American breeders.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Elles;8141806]
I only meant to say that there are two lines of thought in this.
And I only quoted what Eric Lamaze said. I think it suprising that some people say that today’s show jumper needs a lot of strenght where he says that scope is no longer determined by power.
But as someone tells me in a PM I just read, maybe it is really true that there is no use in discussing these matters with American breeders.[/QUOTE]

Why ? Because of most of us American breeders agree with most of the European breeders ?

Be careful with your insults Elles.

[Elles]

These are not my words but the words of someone who wrote me, actually a few people wrote me that. However I kept writing but I know a number of people much rather see me disappear from here.

[ladyj79]

I’m in Europe. I’m at international show jumping events. I don’t see any thoroughbreds. Elles, I’m confused by your contention a few pages ago that Americans had long proved that TBs were for more than racing (which I think we can all agree with) and now to this page where you seem to be sugggesting that Americans are too stupid to understand how great TBs are for show jumping??? When we (in the US) tend to use tbs, be it for breeding and/or sport, much more frequently than Europeans. Again, I’m confused. Are you just trying to insult everyone equally?

I’m being somewhat disingenuous of course, because I’m not confused, because we’ve been going round and round this topic for over a year. I’m just surprised that the phrase thoroughbred mafia hasn’t been used more this year.

[Elles]

http://holsteiner-verband.de/front_content.php?idcat=381
Two Fragonard xx foals.

http://www.soederhof.de/duke_fohlen.html
Foals by Duke of Hearts xx.

http://www.pferdefoehr.de/Fohlen-2011.html
Two foals by Cyrkon xx.

http://www.pferdezucht-beuke.de/fohlen-2014.html
A foal by Likoto xx.

http://www.deckhengst.com/galerie/fohlen/
Offspring of Betel xx.

http://www.pferdewelt-mailham.de/index.php?page=Aktuelles&browse_dir=next&browse_id=132
Foal by Shamal xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ru6gl3lH8s
A foal with Esteban xx in it’s pedigree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=easLOwblRsw
A foal by Asagao xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaVHq5l0DrQ
A foal by Desirao xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFQmysCCnHk
A foal by Duke of Hearts xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCmRMsj6K8I
A foal by Romanoff xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgCQK3RI0C0
A foal by Fragonard xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2JlSGHpEbI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTgFICx2yPU
Older horses by Duke of Hearts xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxDD7mqQW58
Older horse by Ibisco xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wgTU6er3P8
Older horse by Markus Deak xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8edcU8VMXs
Older horse by Lauries Crusador xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmvGHCDgRZU
Older horse by Elimcal xx.

[Elles]

I am not per se talking about full Thoroughbreds but the use of TB in sport horse breeding. I have also often been quite confused with regard to what people are saying here, so you are not the only one.
What I am saying is that I was not expecting people here, with the history of the good TB show jumpers, to be so negative with regard to TB’s. Is it so insulting to say that?!

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Elles;8141947]
http://holsteiner-verband.de/front_content.php?idcat=381
Two Fragonard xx foals.

http://www.soederhof.de/duke_fohlen.html
Foals by Duke of Hearts xx.

http://www.pferdefoehr.de/Fohlen-2011.html
Two foals by Cyrkon xx.

http://www.pferdezucht-beuke.de/fohlen-2014.html
A foal by Likoto xx.

http://www.deckhengst.com/galerie/fohlen/
Offspring of Betel xx.

http://www.pferdewelt-mailham.de/index.php?page=Aktuelles&browse_dir=next&browse_id=132
Foal by Shamal xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ru6gl3lH8s
A foal with Esteban xx in it’s pedigree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=easLOwblRsw
A foal by Asagao xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaVHq5l0DrQ
A foal by Desirao xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFQmysCCnHk
A foal by Duke of Hearts xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCmRMsj6K8I
A foal by Romanoff xx.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgCQK3RI0C0
A foal by Fragonard xx.[/QUOTE]

What is your point in posting this? A dozen or so foals by TB sires - out of all the thousands born in Europe this year - does not reflect much of a movement by breeders to use TB stallions.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Elles;8141952]
I am not per se talking about full Thoroughbreds but the use of TB in sport horse breeding. I have also often been quite confused with regard to what people are saying here, so you are not the only one.
What I am saying is that I was not expecting people here, with the history of the good TB show jumpers, to be so negative with regard to TB’s. Is it so insulting to say that?![/QUOTE]

That is the whole bloody point!
They have been used to death here and they couldn’t compete with European Wb’s. It has been tried and it didn’t work to produce top horses as a rule. That is why most NA breeders are more sure of it, been down that path and realize it takes an exceptional Tb to produce top jumping stock. Like really exceptional.

BTW, Eric doesn’t breed horses, he buys them. Not to say he doesn’t know his horses but Cagney was one of his first successful horses and he was a tank. He might be comparing the two. I can show you quotes from other top riders that say they think their top horses from 30 years ago would still be competitive. Not all Wb’s were tanks, some were refined back then and some are still tanks. And not all courses are the same, some are very tight and some are huge. Pick a horse for the course.