New decision in Holstein

[vineyridge]

If Holstein, or indeed any WB registry, is at all interesting in breeding event horses for the top levels, they will almost certainly have to use TB sires. Badminton XC is going on right now with most of the big names having finished on their dressage scores. The top seven going into SJ tomorrow all have, at the minimum, TB sires and 3 are full TB. IIRC, speaking of TB, I believe there were only 6 who started and all of those are in the top 13 with 4 in the top ten. 4 of the TBs are ridden by riders from Australia and New Zealand, and all but 1 of the TBs were bred there as well.

Final XC results are in and the top hasn’t changed. #8 is Westfalian with 2 TB grandsires, and #9 is Holsteiner with 1 TB grandsire. #10 is full TB. #11 is full TB, as is #13.

There is not a single ISH in the top 11.

Actually there was another TB who started, had a refusal and still finished within the time. He’s sitting 22nd. Just found another full TB per Badminton.
This one is currently sitting 24th. Both of these were UK/Ire bred.

Elles, you must be over the moon about Indian Mill’s results.

[ahf]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8142133]
If Holstein, or indeed any WB registry, is at all interesting in breeding event horses for the top levels, they will almost certainly have to use TB sires. [/QUOTE]

Not one person on the 53 pages of this thread has disputed the value of using TB blood in producing eventers.

[vineyridge]

True. I’m just pointing out that it’s a very different market from showjumpers and dressage horses. To breed for that market TB blood very close is essential. If breeders are unwilling to use TBs, then that is virtually a closed market. As I pointed out in the beginning, if breeders DO use TB sires, there is a market for their F1 products.

I think what the Badminton results show so far is that the notion that horses who are not TB crosses are going to take over eventing is simply wrong.

[Elles]

Yes indeed, Viney, I am very much over the moon with Indian Mill!
http://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/rider_bios/biog081_2015.pdf

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8142133]
If Holstein, or indeed any WB registry, is at all interesting in breeding event horses for the top levels, they will almost certainly have to use TB sires. Badminton XC is going on right now with most of the big names having finished on their dressage scores. The top seven going into SJ tomorrow all have, at the minimum, TB sires and 3 are full TB. IIRC, speaking of TB, I believe there were only 6 who started and all of those are in the top 13 with 4 in the top ten. 4 of the TBs are ridden by riders from Australia and New Zealand, and all but 1 of the TBs were bred there as well.

Final XC results are in and the top hasn’t changed. #8 is Westfalian with 2 TB grandsires, and #9 is Holsteiner with 1 TB grandsire. #10 is full TB. #11 is full TB, as is #13.

There is not a single ISH in the top 11.

Actually there was another TB who started, had a refusal and still finished within the time. He’s sitting 22nd. Just found another full TB per Badminton.
This one is currently sitting 24th. Both of these were UK/Ire bred.

Elles, you must be over the moon about Indian Mill’s results.[/QUOTE]

“Bred THERE as well”. Bred in UK , Australia ,New Zealand… Those are entirely different horses than the ones here.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8142187]
True. I’m just pointing out that it’s a very different market from showjumpers and dressage horses. To breed for that market TB blood very close is essential. If breeders are unwilling to use TBs, then that is virtually a closed market. As I pointed out in the beginning, if breeders DO use TB sires, there is a market for their F1 products.

I think what the Badminton results show so far is that the notion that horses who are not TB crosses are going to take over eventing is simply wrong.[/QUOTE]

"The notion that horses who are not TB crosses are going to take over eventing is just wrong "

Viney…your ability to read for comprehension leaves something to be desired. No one has ever said that. What has been said over and over is that FULL Tb’s have lost their ability to dominate and that TB CROSSES (with warmblood motherlines) are in fact the way to go in eventing.

Michael Jungs horses at Rolex are a good example. The winner was by a TB and out of a mostly Holsteiner mother and his 3rd place mount is the same only out of a Hannoverian motherline.

[Elles]

Does the US not have TB’s with (linebreeding to) A.P. Indy, Abbot’s Trace, Admiral Drake, Affirmed, Ahonoora, Ajax, Alibhai, Almahmoud, Alydar, Angelica, Aristophanes, Asterus, Bahram, Bay Ronald, Bayardo, Beau Pere, Bellini, Bend Or, Bimelech, Black Duchess, Black Toney, Blanche, Blandford, Blenheim, Blue Grass, Blue Larkspur, Blue Swords, Blushing Groom, Bois Roussel, Bold Lad, Bold Reason, Bold Reasoning, Bold Ruler, Boldnesian, Bona Vista, Bosworth, German TB bloodlines, Bromus, Broomstick, Brown Bess, etc. etc.?

[vineyridge]

A full TB beat Michael Jung on Sam at Badminton in 2013.

Full TBs have NEVER dominated in eventing. What eventers need is a very high percentage of TB blood very close.

There are 4 full TBs in the top ten at Rolex and one 1 full Holsteiner who is sitting 9th. There is only one rail among the top 5 and only two among the top 8. The lone Holsteiner (who does not have a TB parent or at least two TB grandparents) is more than two rails back. Neither of the two horses in the top ten without a TB parent were able to finish double clear XC. The WBs who are leading are F1s. To get to be an F1, one has to have one TB parent. That means using TBs.

More full TBs finshed XC double clear than non FI Warmbloods, IIRC.

This thread is supposed to be about opening Holstein breeding to TB sires who are approved in other registries. You say that means nothing since breeders won’t use them. I was simply pointing out that means that they are ignoring the top level eventing market.

I don’t understand what American TBs have to do with whether or not Holstein breeders use TBs.

Aren’t you the one who believes that TBs are no longer needed in WB breeding because all of the good traits of TBs are already present in the gene pool? That certainly doesn’t seem to be the case for top event horses.

[stoicfish]

Aren’t you the one who believes that TBs are no longer needed in WB breeding because all of the good traits of TBs are already present in the gene pool? That certainly doesn’t seem to be the case for top event horses.

For two totally different sports. The ability needed for the cross country is not one that was selected for stadium jumping. You know that…

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8142404]
For two totally different sports. The ability needed for the cross country is not one that was selected for stadium jumping. You know that…[/QUOTE]
That distinction is never clear when people preach about the uselessness of TBs and TB blood “in sport horse breeding” or “WB breeding”… WBs can be very successful eventers if they have Blood. It wouldn’t take much to qualify such statements with “except for eventing”. Then perhaps TB lovers wouldn’t get so exercised.

Here is a summary of the breeding of the Badminton Top 20 after XC, based on the males in non TBs. All the French horses have so much Blood built in from the beginning, that I don’t consider SFs to be a typical WB and have given them their own place. ISHs also are different.

Nereo TB sire
Chilli Morning TB sire
Armada TB sire
Horseware Hale Bob TB sire
Clifton Lush TB
Indian Mill TB
Calico Joe TB
Designer 10 WB sire, grandsires TB + TB
Leonidas II WB sire, grandsires HOL + TB
Clifton Promise TB
Vaguely North TB
Ringwood Sky Boy WB sire, grandsires HOL + TB
Arctic Soul TB
Minos de Petra SF sire
The Deputy TB sire
Paulank Brockagh ISH sire, grandsires SF+TB
Redesigned SF sire
One Two Many WB sire, grandsires HOL+ ISH
KBIS Briarlands Matilda ISH sire, grandsires TB + TB
Beltane Queen TB sire

[OBdB]

[QUOTE=Elles;8056411]
Well, I can tell you most people in Holland and Germany have as good as zero understanding of Thoroughbreds.[/QUOTE]

no, most WB-breeders and nearly all WB registry officials don’t know much about TB. There are some breeders / riders of WB who know as much (or even more) on TB as the self proclaimed experts.

And the actual TB breeding in Germany and France is on the same level as in the original country and elsewhere

[OBdB]

I only just found this discussion and I hope that my contribution(s) here will revive it.
I’m actually reading page 7 … so there will be some further msg from me …

Being new here, if you want to know something about me (or better said my activities in horses) just ask …

[OBdB]

Just a few basic informations … a bit like an introduction :

I have actually 5 mares, 3 old (20 / 19 / 17) and 2 young (4 / 5).

The old mares a based purely on HOL breeding :
20Y old mare and 19Y old mare : Sir Shostakovich xx - Farnese - Fax I - Marabu II
17Y old mare : Parco xx - Farnese - Fax I - Marabu II

The young mares belong to the French (SF) registry :
4Y old : Quality Touch - Sir Shostakovich xx … (mother is the 20Y old mare)
3Y old : Alligator Fontaine - Sir Shostakovich xx … (mother is the 19Y old mare)

I had one foal in 2015 : a colt from Iowa KWPN out of the Quality Touch mare

The 17Y old mare by Parco xx is in foal from Simplex xx (foaling date late april 2016).

I also have a SF-filly by Jaguar Mail (born 2008), actually ridden by a young woman in southern France (mostly SJ, a bit EV)
And I still have the full brother of this filly (born 2009), still working with him as he matures slowly (physically and mentally).

And finally, I have the brother to my 3 old mares who is actually my riding horse (as little as I ride nowadays) … He is by Campione out of the Farnese mare.

as for my writings here, please bear in mind that English is only my third language …

[OBdB]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8059604]
If you have a goal of producing purple, you mix blue and red. Once you have purple, you do not keep adding red. Only if you have some paint that is still a bit on the blue side do you need the red.

Tb’s were critical in producing the modern showjumper, that is not questioned. They are the “red” that was needed. The issue is that once you have a genetically suited animal, adding the products that created it in the first place sets you back.
You wouldn’t want to add a Holsteiner mare from the 60’s either to produce a modern showjumper. She could produce a good horse but probably not one that would out perform a top modern day mare. And the 60’s mare would probably need a Tb.

There can be an intelligent discussion about the genetic pool of Sj’s and what Tb genetics can bring, but they will not improve on the results of the top Show jumping breeding stock. They may improve some Wb’s that do not have enough blood as the Wb population is anything but homogeneous. There may be some older type mares that can benefit but that is different than saying Tb’s are going to improve the best of Show jumpers.[/QUOTE]

you seem to forget that inherent to the WB is a tendancy to heaviness meaning that if you breed generation after generation using only WBs, the endresult will be heavier than the initial pairings.

best example for this is Capitol I.
Capitol has a xx great-grandfather on both his sire and mother side (Cottage Son xx and Manomter xx). Furthermore, he has a linebreeding to Ramzes AA (3x3) and a calculated xx/ox percentage of nearly 51% (which doesn’t make him a halfbred, if you catch my meaning)
But in his model he was a heavy weight and looking more like an overgrown Holsteiner of years before.
He started out as one of many stallions of the Verband, without outstanding results. These first descendants were mostly heavy and not modern enough.
The decision to limit his breeding to mares by a TB (and I mean direct father) or by Cor de la Bryere made all the difference and was THE basis of his succes in his later stallion years and the succes of his sireline.

[LucyShow]

Haven´t read the whole thread but have you seen this?

Rolex WBFSH Top 10 Eventing Sire Ranking

1 (3) CONTENDRO I - 999
2 (10) RAMIRO B - 976
3 (2) HERALDIK XX - 885
4 (1) MASTER IMP XX - 864
5 (20) JAGUAR MAIL - 773
6 (8) RICARDO Z - 704
7 (47) PUISSANCE - 658
8 (4) GHAREEB XX - 648
9 (16) COURAGE II - 630
10 (52) ARD VDL DOUGLAS - 566

The brackets indicate the sire’s ranking position in 2014.

[OBdB]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8059639]
Yes, but is the warmblood jumping genetic pool large enough to interbreed indefinitely? (Not only that, do enough of them have enough blood traits to keep them strong in the population? When I watched the WEG in Jerez I noticed several of the top dressage and jumping horses getting very tired before the end of the competition.)

If it is, great. If not then the registries need to look to outside sources that can jump 1.6m courses. Now they are turning to SFs. TBs are also a likely choice, given their recent competition history. It’s just too bad more aren’t purpose bred for jumping – the point that so-called “TB jihadists” have been trying to make.[/QUOTE]

great answer !

but the French horses, the original French horses, are a rarity nowadays. And they have other citicisable features …
Why do you think that French breeders turned to German / Dutch stallions to ‘improve’ their breedings ?

[LucyShow]

Rolex WBFSH Top 10 Show Jumping Sire Ranking

1 (3) DIAMANT DE SEMILLY - 16527
2 (1) KANNAN - 15618
3 (2) CORNET OBOLENSKY - 15090
4 (5) FOR PLEASURE - 13132
5 (4) BALOUBET DU ROUET - 9690
6 (6) HEARTBREAKER - 9499
7 (24) BALOU DU ROUET - 9235
8 (11)KASHMIR VAN’T SCHUTTERSHOF - 8976
9 (14) CASALL - 8195
10 (35) CHACCO-BLUE - 7956

The brackets indicate the sire’s ranking position in 2014.

[OBdB]

[QUOTE=st_francis;8062798]
I think the mechanism for speed in horses is much different than it is in cats. I read a couple of studies on the biomechanics of the gallop in horses , one on the function of the muscles and structure of the neck and another that discussed the swing of the leg , speed and relative lengtht of leg bones, I am sure I will never find them now but if I do I will link them.

Any way, the ossilation of the neck contributes greatly to a horses speed at a gallop and the muscles are used to Co troll the effect of the weight of the head at the end of a long thin neck. Maybe the ossilation of the back in cheetahs has the same function.

The conclusion of the second study was that mechanically the fastest structure of the limb in horses was a long thin cannon bone which explains a lot about your modern thoroughbred. Of course, that structure may be the fastest but it isn’t the best for weight bearing so if you were to breed a sounder TB with a shorter cannon you would likely be sacrificing speed.

It sounds like the same situation with your jumping horses where adding a different breed may compromise the mechanics of the jump, but maybe for a similar benefit in the long term?[/QUOTE]

as a breeding judge, I participate regulary in reunion on progress in breeding technics or novelties in vet medcine (and evidently regulations).
One of the most interesting novelties was presented by one of the researchers / teachers at the Nantes Institute for Vet Medcine. His conclusion was that there is no difference, clinically, between a short thick or a long thinner canon.

[Elles]

I meant most warmblood people.

[QUOTE=OBdB;8390748]
no, most WB-breeders and nearly all WB registry officials don’t know much about TB. There are some breeders / riders of WB who know as much (or even more) on TB as the self proclaimed experts.

And the actual TB breeding in Germany and France is on the same level as in the original country and elsewhere[/QUOTE]

[OBdB]

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8065734]
I don’t know if any breeder or breed association is ready to do this.

Go to South America. Chile is the main country I am thinking of since I do not know the current problems with Argentina or Uruguay with hoof and mouth disease.

While there is probably modern American TB blood in the Chilean TB, there should be old mare lines in existence. I am not familiar with any Chilean TB winning the super races in the Northern Hemisphere in the last 20-30 years (and of course I could be wrong about this.) Since your breeds seem to NEED TB blood and the modern US and European TBs do not seem to blend as well as the old TB lines, go to where the old TB lines, conformation and movement are still in existence.

THEN, if suitable TBs are found, the WB breed associations might want to consider doing a breeding program of pure TB lines just for jumping so they will have access to suitable TBs. I really doubt that the TB breeders will do this for you, if you want it you will have to do it yourselves. But I have a feeling that this must be done SOON, before all the TB lines in the world are swamped with the modern type TB.[/QUOTE]

The TB is what it is (and also what is was) thanks to the selction based on races. You change the selection method, the TB will change too.
I would not be interested, given the choice, to use a TB that comes from showjumping exclusively lines.

The race system being what it is today, gives indication on soundness and health, recuperation ability (number of races, seasons in training), will power and heart to win (races won or placed), willingness / ability to learn (amelioration in doing the job - talk with the trainers / owners), and so on.

Seriously, there are not that many WB stallions that I find interesting (in regard to my mares), mainly because they are too heavy, too difficult, too much used, too … So why should I use a different breed, based on the same selection methods leading, in fine, to the same type ?

But the point in this discussion is not what we, you actually discuss here. The decision of the HV board to allow, on demand, TBs licensed by other stud-books is based on the need for refinement, for flexibility, elasticity, better conformation (at east in some specific points), recuperation, intelligence and so on.
If the board made this decision then certainly because they found evidence of traits not desireable or traits of regression in the population as a whole. To persuade breeders to use ‘Veredlerhengte’ (refining stallions (?)) give them the choice … do not tell them : use one of the 4 we selected for you … It is better to have the choice between 20 or more stallions than 3 or 4.
Sometimes these other stallions could have been licensed in Holstein, but are not because the owners never presented them (it was the case for one of the Brullemail stallions) arguing that the commission could come to them when or if interested in his stallion.