new difficult horse - where to start..

[f4leggin]

I have a new horse that is giving me trouble, and I’m not sure which way to go with her. I am not new to horses, have owned a bunch. But I’ve never been successful with this type of horse. In the past, I have sold,given away, or sent them away for training. I’m not in the position to any of these, so I’d really like to work this one out myself if I can. She is an 8 yr old Percheron, broke to ride, has horrible ground manners. I can only handle her with a chain around her nose, if I don’t have one - she pushes right threw me/over me/ you get the ugly picture. I bought her because she was awesome to ride, and thought we could work thru the ground issues. All I want to do is trail ride. She lives at my house with older horse and a donkey. I’ve had her about a month - I have just been feeding her, interacting from afar, etc… She has put on some weight - she steals the other horses food, and pushes them around. Yesterday I decided to go for a ride. started off w/o the chain - put it on quickly - had no control without it. After a painful drawn out saddling session - when I finally got on her, she bucked me off and ran away - got herself stuck in the creek actually - but I got her out after I found her. She bucked me off when I turned her away from where she wanted to go (back to the coral where her friends were calling her). The fact that she choose to run away from home and not towards her friends - is an indication to me of her state of mind at that point - not exactly calm.

So… my mistakes - too much grain, no handling, one month of being the boss in a small herd. I am committed to stop the stupid behavior on my part and fix the situation. I have started separating them at feeding time, am debating keeping them side by side vs all together. I will set aside 45 minutes a day to work with her. I don’t plan on getting on her again until I have some ground control, and will go to my neighbors arena to ride next time. What do I do about the chain? I really can’t control her without it. I can work with her in a round pen, just have to set mine up. I know I’m asking for a lot here - when I started to read about ground work and exercises, none of them looked like they would work with a horse that at this point needs a chain to be handled. help…

[wildlifer]

From your description, this situation is just plain dangerous & a hair away from a serious accident. I have negative money (seriously, very negative), but this is a case where you need to get help from someone, hands-on, who has the skillset to teach you and this horse to interact safely.

Or you need to sell the horse.

It sounds harsh, but I have too many friends who’ve ended up with expensive surgeries & trying to figure out how to run their farms on crutches, or worse, because of fewer red flags than this.

Please, be safe.

[f4leggin]

Wildlifer - it does sound dangerous, and I would say the same thing most likely if I were going to respond to someone who had wrote my long drawn out saga. And I appreciate your response. It is dangerous. Without control, she will run through and over me. The running away part is what worries me the most. Running blindly though the woods and down into a creek and getting stuck - seriously no self preservation on her part. You have reminded me above all else to be safe when dealing with her. I know what my limits are and how to do that at least. The situation yesterday was pure stupidity on my part. I know better. And I will keep your wise words and advice in my mind. I have approached a neighbor with a boarding stable and trainer about taking her on to work with - I will pursue this more.

Thanks again.

Jill

[Countrywood]

I would get a professional in to help you, a good NH (natural horsemanship) trainer who specializes in ground manners. Often they train with a rope halter which you can use once you learn it, a rope halter offers more control than a conventional halter and a different sense of control than a chain , a chain is more to keep them from dragging/killing you as opposed to teaching them to back off, respect your space etc.

till you get someone in to help you, use the chain or lead with a bridle/bit in mouth, carry a dressage whip as well use the blunt end on her shoulder or chest or neck if she barges leans into you etc.

[sdlbredfan]

Other than wondering if the horse was drugged when you tried her out and enjoyed the ride, I am curious why you bought one with such poor ground manners. Now that you have done so, however, you either need to get that behavior fixed immediately, or find a new home for this one. Life is too short to deal with a dangerous horse, especially when rescue groups have many sane, safe and sensible horses available.

[Chall]

So those of you who have dealt with this before, would clicker training help with this type of horse? Like "“stand”, “halt”, move over, touch the paddle with your nose etc?

[SuzieQNutter]

Honestly, if you can not afford training and after getting her trained are going to do the same thing… eg leave in the paddock for a month and expect no changes. Then a motorbike is what you are looking for.

You have done the right thing asking for professional help. Now you are in their hands and need to follow their advice.

[Melissa.Van_Doren]

I adopted a free horse years ago. HUGE and rude and knew how to use his weight and would absolutely barge over anyone in his way. He had a longstanding pain issue (corrected within the first few days he lived with me) and had been ineffectively handled by previous owners. He reacted to normal corrections with, at best, the ignore button on and, at worst, with aggressive behavior. I’m very experienced and have worked with lots of different personalities and this guy surprised even me. In the first few months of having him at my private barn, I did not let anyone into the stall or paddock with him. And it was about six months before I trusted him half way, another year before I felt he was reliably compliant and totally safe. And he stayed that way for the rest of his life. What worked? Focus, timing, fairness and some serious discipline.

Whenever I worked with him, I was thinking of nothing else. I didn’t use a chain (although that’s what he came with). Instead, I chose a Be Nice Halter. the pressure knots and beaded crown piece, along with rope construction (thin, so easy to apply uncomfortable pressure if warranted) was an excellent substitute. And for the first few months I carried a stout crop. If he tried to shoulder me or shove me or threaten me he got WHACKED. Hard. As hard as I could hit him. In the shoulder or on the rib cage. Just once. No temper. Just “NO” and WHACK. It startled him and made a serious impression the first time I did it, and after that I think he got spanked maybe a total of five times. It was less force than another horse would’ve used to kick him, for sure, but it was with the same intent. OUT of my space. NOW. And it worked. He quickly started to think twice before throwing his weight around. (And while we were still in this stage, I was not riding, and only working with him in a small paddock - 50x100’ - or in the barn aisle or his stall. I wasn’t going to give him the chance to get away. But I didn’t put much pressure on him - stand still for just a few minutes for partial grooming. Walk up and down the aisle in line with my shoulder a couple times. Move your feet when I tell you to… haunches over there, shoulders over there, back a couple steps, come forward a couple steps. Lots of little lessons of very short duration to teach him that doing what was asked was not unreasonable and would get him praised and petted and released from work. In the beginning, when I would let him go he would literally run out into the field - letting off built up pressure - then come back to hang out. It was very interesting to observe.

I never got angry with him. Never shanked him. Never yelled.
Always kept the early lessons SHORT and simple. Praised for every little good behavior. All the normal stuff you do training normal horses. But because he had that big hole in him, it took a lot more work, patience, try. I don’t have any special voodoo powers. But I can out-wait anything when I want to come out on top. Repetition, repetition, repetition. Not drilling all at once. Just doing the same little lessons until he really learned them. Until he wasn’t leading well or standing still by accident, but on purpose.

It was a full six months before I ever sat on him, but that was non-eventful. He had been ridden plenty before I got him and remembered those lessons well. He turned out to be a wonderful horse and lived a full happy life with me. I miss him a lot. He had incredible character.

So I guess the point of all of this is to tell you it is possible to deal with the kind of issues you’re describing. The question is, do you want to? Because you really have to want to. If you lose your patience or your temper, or can’t commit to the time, or don’t want to put the effort in, I won’t think less of you, for sure. This type of challenging horse isn’t for everyone. And I agree with the others who say the behaviors are downright dangerous (to you, and of course to others… if you get dumped on a trail and she runs out into traffic, for instance.) For starters, I would put her in a paddock by herself 24/7. Eliminating her ability to control anything else will take some of the wind out of her sails. And it’s a good idea to consider her nutrition. If she can stay healthy on grass hay and a basic vitamin supplement, you may see an immediate change in her demeanor. But the most important piece of the puzzle is you and your time. If you can’t work at this nearly daily (1 or 2 days off each week MAX), you’re not going to get very far very fast.

Good luck.

[f4leggin]

Well, I knew I was opening myself up when I posted this… Why I bought her - who knows. I appreciate everyone’s feedback - I am looking for concrete advice. Believe me - although I appear to be somewhat of an idiot or newbie - I’m not. I am in over my head - no doubt! Thanks for your suggestions!!!

[f4leggin]

PS - she is a “rescue”. pmu baby.

[Carol_Ames]

Alpha mare needed

start with ground manners; basic Tellington Touch/ Monty Roberts work; find an experienced person to help you with this; Is there an Alpha mare she can be turned out with?

One who, has good ground members? I am a firm believer letting the older animals teach the younger/ greener ones:yes:

[KIloBright]

I can’t believe she rode well, unless drugged, with ground manners the way they are
So, for us to help you better, please describe how she rode and acted when you bought her
Did she tie nicely and stand to be saddled?
Since you wanted a trail horse, did you actually ride her out by herself, or just in some controlled area, maybe even ridden down before you got there???
How did the seller lead her-also with a chain, or did she lead respectfully ?
How did she load?
Something is missing here.
Either you never really tried this horse out before buying her, or the horse was drugged.
It is possible that she isn’t even broke, nor has been handled much.
If you want to keep her, then first get some experienced horse person to assess how much of her behavior is due to lack of training, and how much to being a spoiled horse
You need that base line in order to formulate a training approach. If the horse is truly green, then you go back and teach her how to yield to pressure, etc.
If she is spoiled,. then you have to use whatever it takes, so that she never again is successful in breaking away, taking off , etc, thus over riding bad past negative training with the correct responses. In other words, you make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard
You always, always should try ahorse out in intennded use.
When we were raising andf selling horses, I never had ahorse caught or ridden down, before the buyer came. I wanted that buyer to see how the horse accepted being haltered, led tot he barn, saddled and ridden, without having been lunged or ridden down
If the person was looking for a trail horse, made no sense to just have him arena ride that horse, but instead, allow that person to ride the horse out, and see how the horse’s attitude was
If looking for a show horse, actually watch that horse, or even ride him at a show
Somewhere you missed some pre purchase homework.
This horse does not need clicker training nor NH training, but just good solid training, to earn basic respect

[Carol_Ames]

safety equipment

You are wearing a helmet aren’t you?:yes: possibly a vest as well? get a good insurance policy as well; life is too long and difficult to go through hobbled by old injuries’ as me how I know:winkgrin: sometimes the damage is cumulative:mad::sadsmile: We get only one brain, take care of it:yes:

[Carol_Ames]

fFWIW , I have heard people say they have had good results with "Horse Cents( cents, sense feed with such horses; It might be worth a try:yes:

[Cindyg]

My horse is also pushy and strong. Also food aggressive. I’ve had him three years now, and it IS a project dealing with his bratty nature. But of course he has many wonderful and endearing traits too; as does your horse. You just don’t know what they are yet.

I think Melissa gave you good advice. I would slow way, way down with this horse. Treat him like he’s never been handled. Get a couple of books – or dare I suggest – video programs (!) on horse training, and start him from the very beginning. Work through every single exercise, fixing every hole you encounter. You already know that your first hole is going to be leading manners. Probably standing tied too. Clearly saddling. Just pretend he’s a two-year old and get to work. You’re not a novice equestrian. You should have a lot of fun with this.

Someone asked about clicker training. Personally, I adore clicker training. But I would have great hesitation to start clicker training (I mean assuming YOU would be a novice clicker trainer) working with a horse who is food aggressive, and it sounds like this one is.

Draft horses aren’t like the regular saddle breeds. (I don’t know what breed you’re used to.) They’re not worse. They have many endearing traits. Obviously. But if you haven’t worked with a draft, give yourself a learning curve.

Good luck!!

(If you care to follow along with me, my horse’s blog is in my signature line. I’ve had to work through several pushy-horse issues. My hope for this coming year is to work on heavy-on-the-forehand issues. )

ETA: I, personally, do not use the “alpha mare” approach. I take the slow-and-steady approach. My horse is totally unflappable. It would take a lot more “alpha” than I’m comfortable with to intimidate him, so I don’t even try. And he is super strong. If I ever did get “big enough” to intimidate him, I’d never be able to prevent him from bolting. So I just go slow and steady.

[Frog_Pond]

[QUOTE=Cindyg;7928038]

But I would have great hesitation to start clicker training (I mean assuming YOU would be a novice clicker trainer) working with a horse who is food aggressive, and it sounds like this one is.

Draft horses aren’t like the regular saddle breeds. (I don’t know what breed you’re used to.) They’re not worse. They have many endearing traits. Obviously. But if you haven’t worked with a draft, give yourself a learning curve. [/QUOTE]

I’ve done a tiny bit of clicker training with a nasty mare to improve her ground manners – no mean faces at feeding time, no snapping during haltering – and it’s worked very, very well. But, I can only manage it – coordination and timing-wise – when she’s stalled and I’m in the aisle. It’s a great tool, but, not the only one I need to get this horse safe to handle. It has improved our relationship and trust. If you’re interested in it, OP, you can always try just for one behavior and see how it goes. I like ‘relaxed ears, no ugly face’ for starters.

Drafts aren’t worse behaved than light horses, but their impact sure makes it seem that way when they start raising hell! :lol:

I think the folks on this thread who suspect drugging are probably off base. Many of us know lots horses whose behavior is entirely context dependent – they go great on familiar trails, with their buddies, and melt down and become complete nutcases when challenged with new environments and expectations. Plus, there is the draft factor here – eight years old for a Percheron is like 2 1/2 for a TB, mentally and emotionally. She sounds green, immature, and seriously bratty. I like Melissa’s advice, too, and think you can improve her behavior quite a bit without endangering yourself. Good luck.

[KIloBright]

frog Pond wrote:

I think the folks on this thread who suspect drugging are probably off base. Many of us know lots horses whose behavior is entirely context dependent – they go great on familiar trails, with their buddies, and melt down and become complete nutcases when challenged with new environments and expectations. Plus, there is the draft factor here – eight years old for a Percheron is like 2 1/2 for a TB, mentally and emotionally. She sounds green, immature, and seriously bratty. I like Melissa’s advice, too, and think you can improve her behavior quite a bit without endangering yourself. Good luck. "

Sorry< i grew up with draft horses, and while a cold blooded horse can be a bit insensitive, drafts are very laid back and quiet, and why many like that draft cross in a riding horse
When I was around 13 years old, growing up on a tobacco farm, where we used Percherons, and knowing not a thing about training horses, I broke a young draft filly,that was born to one of the mares, to both ride and drive
An 8 year old draft is not immature. One that behaves like that mare, is either not handled, or has been allowed to become spoiled
I also disagree that horses that are broke, act up by bucking the rider off, when they are exposed to new homes or trails, unless they were never ridden out in the first place
Many letters from satisfied buyers of our horses, would dispute that premise
trainers would be out of business, if horses that they trained and sold could not be ridden in their new homes
Horses that have a melt down ridden alone, but fine with buddies, have never been ridden alone, and their rider was more or less a passenger, while that horse got his confidence, not from the rider, but from the other horses
Still waiting to here if the OP rode that horse out by her self, before buying her.
You don’t buy a trail horse, then just try that horse out, following another buddy, or in an enclosed area
Buy a horse off of a dude string, that is used to just following the horse ahead of it, and then try riding it out by himself, and you’ll see the difference
This is either a spoiled horse, or one that was never handled much, or both, and she needs some professional training
If the OP rode that horse out by herself fine at her old home, then I strongly suspect the horse was drugged, otherwise the entire scenario makes no sense
A horse that neither leads well, of bucks the rider off, after being hard to saddle is not in any stretch of the imagination well broke, nor does she 'ride ’ well, unless you call following another horse or being led, riding!!!

[SuzieQNutter]

A draft horse is still a horse. There is no feeding from afar, etc. Every time you enact with a horse you are training the horse.

This horse was not worked for a month and fed grain. This leads to being 'overfed and underworked ', so if the horse was being ridden up to being sold. After a month of the ‘new trainer’ and grain going to its head- which means making a hotter horse going faster and a colder horse bucking -Then the outcome is as any trainer would have predicted and the outcome is worse if the horse was in work before moving. JMHO.

If it took a month for the horse to get into the realm of overfed and underworked, it can take a month to get out of it.

[Flash44]

What Melissa said. In the round pen with a rope halter that works on pressure points. And you may need more than 45 minutes a day - I’d set a behavior goal rather than a time goal each day. I’d also get the tack on her asap and not baby her AT ALL about working. Tie her up with the tack on as well for a little bit each session.

[2enduraceriders]

[QUOTE=f4leggin;7927868]
PS - she is a “rescue”. pmu baby.[/QUOTE]

As a farrier I worked with a number of orphans and near orphans. Because of that I swore I would never raise one. Of course I raised 3 over the years. What was the most work was not spoiling them like the horrible ill mannered unsafe orphans I have met up to that point.
Your mare has never had respect for people. She learned right after birth that she could ignore and walk over the top of humans. Yes it is fixable but it is not a fun task. If, as you said, you do not have the disposition/skills to deal with a more “normal” undisciplined horse it will feel like you are being cruel and abusive trying to “fix” her and that is how you will always have to handle her. Sending this type of horse to a trainer will get the horse safe for that trainer. Because the behaviors are so ingrained all it will take for her to return to her pushy ways will be for someone to step back away from her rather then standing firm and always making her move. I could never get this concept ingrained into my one friend. She would always “step back” from a horse she was grooming in order to “not get stepped on”. In the same situation I might put a hand out to touch the horse or move it back over. She was stepped on a lot and I never was. I could never get her to understand that if she had simply put her hand out to start with her horse never would have gotten to the point where it kicked and bit and slammed his rear into people.
If a trainer fixes your mare you will always have to be “boss” mare and reminding her in every single interaction that you are boss. My friends horse received a couple days of retraining and was sold to a knowledgeable person and did fine. My friend ended up with a very sweet non dominant horse and did ok after that.
It really sounds like no amount of retraining of your horse or you will make you two into a good match.