new difficult horse - where to start..

[KIloBright]

Being a PMU baby has nothing to do with it, beyond that PMU babies usually are handled very little, if at all, before being sold
Along with raising horses ourselves for many years, we also bought several PMU colts around the age of nine months, that had not been handled. All turned out fine
It is in correct handling that creates a dis respectful horse, and why trainers would rather take ahorse to train that has not been handled much, as opposed to one that has been handled incorrectly, thus becoming that proverbial ‘barnyard pet’, which has no respect of people.
As endurancerider mentioned, such a horse has to have negative training removed, before any good training can start, and the horse will never have that clean slate of mind as a horse that was never spoiled in the first place, thus will revert, given the chance
Far as PMU babies, what often occurred, is because they sold cheap, people with little horse experience bought them at times, totally un prepared far as working with an un handled colt, and when they found themselves over their head, dumped them. Thus, many wound up in rescues.
I agree that you sound like you are in over your head with this horse
We are are not sure as to how ‘broke’ this horse really was when bought, as many people buy a horse, trying that horse out in some confined area, or just following along after a well broke and quiet horse, then are surprised when they attempt to ride that horse out by itself, after buying it, beyond the comfort zone of the horse

I can give just one example of this scenario. The person who bought our last stallion, after we gelded him, had tried out a show mare before him, and told me of her experience .
This buyer had a policy of always trying a horse out three times before buying, with one ride being out on a trail.
She rode that mare twice in the arena, and she was wonderful, thus almost ready to buy.
She then took the horse down the road. (might have been with others or by herself )
The minute she turned that mare towards home, she reared and tried to bolt.
Needless to say, end of sale. Our horse passed the test with flying colors!
Yes, the mare was under worked and over fed, but I still don’t see that as a greatly excuse, if she was truly broke
Some of our horses, esp hubby’s, don’t get ridden all winter. In the spring, except for being a bit out of condition, they ride fine.Ditto to mares that we used as broodmares for several years, then gave them a re fresher course as riding horses, before selling them, after we quit breeding
They did great, because they were broke before going into the broodmare band-a policy of mine
Some sold to the other end of the country, after just a month of riding, and we got letters on what great trail horses they were-more than expected.
(one of those mares by the way, was a PMU foal that I bought)

[Equibrit]

Start from scratch, as if she was an unbroken/handled 3yo. This way you can make sure that any holes are filled and she can learn to trust you.
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Young_Horse.html?id=JVRiOnRe2FkC

[f4leggin]

thank you all so much for taking the time to respond to my cry for help. I have talked to my neighbor - and next week I will move her over there for a least a month so I can work with the mare under the supervision of a trainer to get some education and not be in my backyard alone if something goes wrong. It will also give me a chance to set up my place better to handle a young strong horse - I’ve been spoiled just having my 28 yr old TB - who was a handful in her younger years, but these days she is the easiest, least likely to challenge a twine as fencing - let alone pipe panels (not that the new mare has challenged the pipe - but I think she could if pushed…). This new mare, I have named Moonshine, is my second draft - my first draft, I had for awhile, fed for about a year, and gave away. So, yes, I am new to working with a draft - but have seen how they can go through things vs over them, if they need to.

Was she drugged? No, I really don’t think so. Really… I did ride her out on trail the day I tried her out, she was easy. I did go get her out of her paddock, saddled her up - she was difficult. I underestimated the difficult part. I’m somewhat used to difficult under saddle, so when she was so easy to ride, and willing, I pushed aside the voice of reason that said - yes - she is difficult to handle. She bucked me off and I bailed - based on the fact that after I was off instead of running to her friends she took off through the woods away from home, it probably was a good idea I bailed - but I also wish I had hung on a little harder to see what happened next. I have owned so many horses thru the years, but since I lost my farm and everything with it, I have only had my old TB and a donkey to keep her company for the past 4 years, and I forgot what it’s all about. Sharp wake up call.

So, the good news is you guys have been a great support and I have a plan to get some help with this.

Thanks again…

PS - I always wear a helmet, thank goodness. It’s a carry over from my dressage days - so many times I have been out with a bunch of trail riders, the only one with a helmet on. When I got bucked off in front of a group of newbie trail riders - who were probably mortified at what they had just witnessed, After saying I’m fine, where did she go, I exclaimed “thank God I had my helmet on”!

[Foxglove]

I have a Percheron (full blooded). He’s 22 now, but in his youth, much like your mare, although never got quite as hot as she seems to be. A couple of things about Percherons --they are not quite. Some draft horses are, but Percherons are spirited. Having said that, I was totally blessed to live 25 miles from a top Percheron trainer and in the middle of Amish country. After my boy (at 4 years old) bolted in harness, crashed a carriage, tore up a full set of harness and went though 400 feet of fence, I called her and begged her to take him (Cathy Zahm, if you must know). She said she was full, but her suggestion was “put him to work.” She said draft horses need work, heavy work, and a lot of it or they become brats! So I did. I asked my students (I teach high school) who had an Amish relative who was good with horses. One boy told me about his uncle. I checked him out with my vet and the feed store dealer. Both confirmed, “Good man with a horse.” So I drove down to see him. He came out to see my horse. We agreed on my horse going to work for him as part of a (gulp) 8 horse hitch --my horse was the replacement horse. He was rotated out after four hours every day --of plowing, planting, haying, and spreading manure. My horse worked EVERY DAY (except Sunday) in harness for four hours pulling something heavy. He worked from January to June, then when back as needed for corn picking and haying. He came back a changed horse. The Amishman was small --Charlie learned to put his head nearly to the ground to have his bridle put on. I kept him with the Amishman for about 3-4 years, until it became obvious that Charlie was becoming really heavy on the fore hand --I actually rode him in dressage, and he needed to stop moving like he was leaning into a collar!

I don’t think riding horses need the heavy labor that draft horses do. But I DO think that’s a lot of your horse’s problem --she needs heavy work on a daily basis. You might look on the draft horse web cites, or forums --I eventually bought a harrow and even to this day, before I hitch Charlie to his carriage, I have him harrow the dressage rings -he’s much more pleasant in harness when he does that first. I also built Charlie a stone boat --used to drive the kids around on that --and we kept a few logs around for him to drag (actually, not a good idea since I subsequently learned that’s really dangerous if you don’t know what your are doing --and I didn’t). A lot of peeps who used to see Charlie in 4-H had the idea that he’s this really sweet laid back draft horse --what they didn’t realize is that he’d just dragged his carriage 10 miles to the horse show and would be dragging it back. He wasn’t laid back, he was tired!

So put that horse to work, hard work, or see if you can find someone who can. If it hadn’t been for that Amish fellow working Charlie as much as he did, he wouldn’t have been the horse he is today.

Foxglove

[Zu_Zu]

Good Plan OP ~ Jingles & AO your new mare is ‘ready’ soon ~

Good plan OP ~

Jingles & AO your new mare is re-worked and ‘ready’ for home fun soon ~

((hugs)) it is painfully discouraging when a new horse shows bad behaviors `` when all you had planned was FUN!

Be patient with some time and professional help `` you will be a ‘trail team’ by spring ~

[KIloBright]

Funny, my Percheron filly was extremely easy to break to ride and drive, and way more laid back then any horse with more hot blood
I am glad that the Op is getting some help with this horse
The filly was only three , when i broke her to pull the stone boat, and then i just hooked her up to a cutter, and drove her down the road. I was only about 13 year olds at the time, and all I knew about horse , is what I learned on my own.
My step dad would turn the Percheron mares out in the corn field, after tobacco harvest was over (yes, I also grew up in Amish territory ), with leather halters left on
These halters were loose enough, that I could jump on from the ground, pull the crown of that halter back enough to hold with one hand, while my other hand held a hunk of mane, and I would gallop across that field , with only a halter on the horse.
Would never have tried that with the spoiled Anglo Arabain stallion that my mis guided step father bought for me!
I begged for a light horse, as I didn’t want to ride a draft with the neighborhood boys, who had saddle horses > he finally relented, but being a practical man, since we had those draft mares, made sense for him to buy a stallion! That horse really taught me to ride, as he had all kinds of tricks, including rearing and going over backwards, but that is another story, and I am fortunate that in my ignorance of youth, I survived without a major injury!
Nope, the Percherons that I had in my life were extremely easy going!
Not saying some good hard work will not help this mare, as that never hurts any horse, esp a spoiled one, draft or not!

[wildlifer]

[QUOTE=f4leggin;7927721]
Running blindly though the woods and down into a creek and getting stuck - seriously no self preservation on her part. You have reminded me above all else to be safe when dealing with her. I know what my limits are and how to do that at least. [/QUOTE]

To the second part, I say thank you for your sake and the sake of those who care about you & commend you for taking my comments as they were meant, looking at the big picture. I’m not saying this is a “bad” horse, and there are a good number of qualified folks out there who can help you. But not over the internet.

Because the first part of what I quoted is the biggest red flag of all. Once the horse flips the switch to “blind panic/bolt/whatever,” that is when you cross a very serious & possibly deadly line. Have known two riders who were killed (even with helmets on) in very similar situations – when a horse enters that zone of no self-preservation, they truly are blind, both I knew ran smack into a tree at a gallop & riders died of massive trauma, one horse broke its neck.

So you are very wise to take it seriously & not take it on alone. Even with my own horses, whom I demand toe the line & are mild-mannered geldings with kind, sensible, & well-trained minds, and a lifetime of horse experience…they are still horses & there have still been moments where I knew I needed to stop pushing or walk away because I can feel that break point.

It is possible that this horse could turn into a great partner, but not without an investment of time with a solid & respected horseman who can bring you both on the journey safely.

[KIloBright]

I am glad that you are getting help!
I would not ride her out, until you get some good basics on her, including respect on both the ground and under saddle
Yes, once the flight instinct kicks in, horses stop thinking, and will bolt blindly-run through barb wire fences, ect
It is thus very important that you have some calm down cues and exercises that will help the horse return her focus to you
I also would not ride her with a group of horses, until you have good body control and basics on her. Horses feed off of each other, and if you ride with a group where various horses are acting up some, then a green horse esp will feed off of that
I imagine she got high, with you trying to hold her, and then she resorting to bucking
If you are determined to ride her out at this point, do so only with one other horse that is very steady, and with that rider making sure gaits stay in your comfort zone
I first ride green horses out by themselves, but only after I have some good basics and body control on them. I want my horse to learn to have confidence in me, and not on other horses
When I then do start to ride that horse out with others, I avoid horses or riders that are idiots on trail rides
With experience, horses learn to handle themselves well on trails, remaining calm, even if other horses pass them at speed, etc, or if you ask them to remain at the gait you have asked for, while other horses dash ahead
A green or un sure horse, if held back, when other horses pass will get excited and buck

I just thought of another factor, you might need to consider. You said that she was a rescue horse, and has put on some weight since you have had her
That has me thinking she was under weight when you first rode her.
Once that horse gets some good groceries and is feeling fine, often their true nature or level of training comes out, and she could well have seemed easy to ride when you first tried her, as she did not have energy beyond what is required for daily activities of life

[sorrelfilly721]

Do you have anywhere to turn her loose and free lunge her before you handle/ride her? It’s not the solution for bad manners, but it does a world of good for getting rid of angst. I worked with a Belgian/perch who was a wonderful riding horse but not tons of “forward” (I was training him for dressage). I stopped turning him out because I didn’t want to lose my “go”. He started refusing for me to get on him. He would run off as soon as I tried to throw my leg over. At one point, he dragged three adults (each with a chain over his nose) across the property. I started turning him out and chasing him around again before our rides and the problem disappeared. Just a thought.

[kcmel]

[QUOTE=Foxglove;7929039]

I don’t think riding horses need the heavy labor that draft horses do. But I DO think that’s a lot of your horse’s problem --she needs heavy work on a daily basis. You might look on the draft horse web cites, or forums --I eventually bought a harrow and even to this day, before I hitch Charlie to his carriage, I have him harrow the dressage rings -he’s much more pleasant in harness when he does that first.
Foxglove[/QUOTE]

I love this! I have a perch/paint cross that is a bit hot when I first get on him. But he settles down really quickly. I just do a mile hack up and down the road or around a field before I ride him in the ring. When fox hunting the first 10 minutes can be a little hairy, but then he is fine. I’m glad I don’t have to hook him to a harrow! (Although you intrigue me–he does drive).

It sounds like the OP has a good plan in place, but perhaps some lunging/round pen work before riding would be helpful when she does get back on him.

[Zu_Zu]

Bumping for an update ~ please ~ hoping the plan is working smoothly !~

** Bumping for an update ~ please ~

Hoping the ‘plan’ is working smoothly ~

Sunshine Jingles & AO for you OP ~

[Guilherme]

What the OP has is an unbroke horse. It might be under saddle but it’s not broke. If she’s qualified to break a 8 year old drafter then she should carry on. If not then she either needs to send the horse to someone who is or move it on down the road before she gets seriously hurt.

I serious doubts that 30 days with a trainer, any trainer, is going to be sufficient to get his horse correctly started. This is not “The Road To The Horse.” Bog only knows how much prior “training” is going to have to be overcome before new and correct training can be imparted. From her story I’d bet the farm that this horse has been passed from pillar to post several times and now, fully grown, has learned that it can simply run over humans any time it want’s to. Horses like this, big and undisciplined, are wildly dangerous. They are often beyond the average trainer, much less an amateur owner.

This is a program that will take substantial time and money. I hope the OP has lots of both.

G.

[KIloBright]

Agree with Guilherme

With better food, the true training level and attitude of this horse has emerged, regardless of that ‘first’ ride before buying

[f4leggin]

I will post an update after riding her mother tomorrow. Bottom line is, the mare has been doing really well where she is. They are riding her w/o problems, they are handling her w/o a stud chain. She was bratty when they got her, but with a firm hand and regular handling she is back to where she was when I bought her. We think the problem I had that day might have been saddle related. But, she requires daily/regular work, and realistically, this is not what I want. I want a horse I can ride once a week, no stress, nice walk in the park. And she requires a firm hand and voice, and the truth is I’m afraid of her at this point even though I have ridden her w/o problems, since she has been back under their care. So, tomorrow I’m going to try her mother. Going to get her out of the paddock, saddle and ride her, and really pay attention to how she behaves. This horse is older, and extremely mellow. The daughter, who I bought, is gorgeous, feisty, and something to look at. The mother is older, calm, sweet, and this is all good with me. Lucky for me, the person I bought her from has been amazingly supportive and helpful with all this.

[SuzieQNutter]

Good luck but if you are only going to ride once a week for a walk then you would probably be better off hiring a horse for the ride or riding a push bike.

Yes those horses do exist, old ones usually if you don’t want to go out of walk.

Horses do enjoy going for a ride. They also enjoy going faster than a walk and having a canter and if full of joy from no work a buck.

You need to think not just about what you want but what the horse wants as well.

[rememberthenight]

I thought she was a rescued PMU baby?

[f4leggin]

To clarify, her mother, the one I have been riding this week, is a rescued PMU mare. The daughter, is the one I had difficulty with. If I used the term incorrectly, I am sorry. As for the pushing the bike comment, I’m sure you can imagine what I think of that - and I’m not sure why you feel the need to be snarky with me. If I have offended anyone with my request for help, I am truly sorry. I do appreciate the help I have gotten here, without it, I may not have recognized how far in I was over my head and asked for help in real life.

As for thinking about what’s right for the horse as well as me, I agree 100%.

I have been riding the Mom this week, she has plenty of energy, as much as her daughter, but much better ground manners. I realized thru this experience, I had gotten complacent and had forgotten that riding a horse is a relationship with the horse as well as a partnership. These sort of realizations, btw, are best learned in real life, and rarely come as the result of a snarky comment.

Thx - over and out.

[2enduraceriders]

So glad you may have a horse you can click with. Not every horse is a good fit for every person. That doesn’t make you any less of a horseman. I feel you are a better horseman then most for letting go of the horse that is not enjoyable for you and finding one who is! I am so saddened at the number of “pasture pets” whose only fault is the owner does not want to admit the horse would be happier somewhere else with a rider who likes them.

[Melissa.Van_Doren]

Thanks for coming back to update. I’m glad you’re on the right path to finding a horse you can enjoy and feel confident on. An easy walk once a week is fine for a horse that has the right temperament to enjoy it. Good luck.

[SuzieQNutter]

Not a snarky comment a saying and I think you came to the realisation of half of what it means.

It goes one further than your realisation about the relationship you have with a horse and I applaud you for that.

What the saying means is that if you leave the bike in the shed for a period of time it will be the same when you pull it out.

Leave the horse untouched for a week and the horse is not the same one you rode last week.