Actually I have seen TONS of horses that are perfectly content to go on a 45 minute walk trail ride once a week. Our local state park is full of them. I have known horses you could ride once a year and they would be fine and other horses you needed to ride 7 days a week.
[QUOTE=f4leggin;7962549]
To clarify, her mother, the one I have been riding this week, is a rescued PMU mare. The daughter, is the one I had difficulty with. If I used the term incorrectly, I am sorry. As for the pushing the bike comment, I’m sure you can imagine what I think of that - and I’m not sure why you feel the need to be snarky with me. If I have offended anyone with my request for help, I am truly sorry. I do appreciate the help I have gotten here, without it, I may not have recognized how far in I was over my head and asked for help in real life.
As for thinking about what’s right for the horse as well as me, I agree 100%.
I have been riding the Mom this week, she has plenty of energy, as much as her daughter, but much better ground manners. I realized thru this experience, I had gotten complacent and had forgotten that riding a horse is a relationship with the horse as well as a partnership. These sort of realizations, btw, are best learned in real life, and rarely come as the result of a snarky comment.
Thx - over and out.[/QUOTE]
The “bike” comment was not snarky; it’s a reality. It’s like the old saying that you can never cross the same river twice because both you and river are different (i.e., changed over time).
Horses are herd animals. When you are with the horse you are the functional “herd mate.” You are not a “partner” in the human sense. The relationship that forms is cross species meaning it’s different for you and the horse. Letting anthropomorphic thoughts enter in, here, is a good way to both fail and get hurt at the same time.
The world of the horse is pyramidal. At the top is the alpha (in the state of nature a mare). If you’ve never done so find someplace where you can sit for several hours and watch how horses interact with each other in a large field. The herd is not Disneyesque in its operation. It will give you the opportunity to see horses as they are, not as they are often portrayed and envisioned.
Some horses can be left in a pasture for long periods without having attitudes change. Some can’t. This is highly individual to any given horse. And, once again, this reminds us that we must ride the horse under us, not the horse in somebody’s book, video, or clinic.
One of the WORST aspects of the American horse scene is the failure, pretty much across the board, to lay good foundations when starting youngsters. Way too many are started in back yards by folks with just enough skill to get the horse to accept a saddle and rider. They call the horse “broke” (and it’s not) and place it into the stream of commerce where it’s the consequences of this failure to train the horse quickly become apparent. Few buyers take the time to “fill in the blanks” in prior training. This allows the Parellis and Roberts’ and Tellington-Jones’ of the world to make a lot of money hawing “snake oil” to deal with “problem horses” where what’s really necessary is to just restart the horse from the get go. This is now a more difficult process because the trainer is no longer working with a green horse but with a horse with lots of bad habits. IMO it also keeps a lot of slaughter buyers in business. It’s enough to make you weep. 
So, with the young horse in this story, go back to basics. Longe the horse, correctly, for a month and teach response to voice and body language. Then move forward. Download and read Vladimir Littauer’s book Common Sense Horsemanship. He presents an 8 month syllabus in detail. It works. Do this sooner than later so that you’re working with a green horse vice a horse with formed bad habits.
Good luck in your program.
G.
[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;7963262]
Leave the horse untouched for a week and the horse is not the same one you rode last week.[/QUOTE]
Funny, 90% of the horses I have seen are fine sitting 4-6 months then going out on a ride. That is a horse that was properly trained as opposed to one that only does well when lunged or tiered.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;7963649]
One of the WORST aspects of the American horse scene is the failure, pretty much across the board, to lay good foundations when starting youngsters. Way too many are started in back yards by folks with just enough skill to get the horse to accept a saddle and rider. They call the horse “broke” (and it’s not) and place it into the stream of commerce where it’s the consequences of this failure to train the horse quickly become apparent. Few buyers take the time to “fill in the blanks” in prior training. This allows the Parellis and Roberts’ and Tellington-Jones’ of the world to make a lot of money hawing “snake oil” to deal with “problem horses” where what’s really necessary is to just restart the horse from the get go. This is now a more difficult process because the trainer is no longer working with a green horse but with a horse with lots of bad habits. IMO it also keeps a lot of slaughter buyers in business. It’s enough to make you weep. :([/QUOTE]
This is why I suggested that the horse was not drugged during the pre-purchase ride. Sure, there are unscrupulous idiots who drug horses to sell them. But they are seriously outnumbered by the morons who wreck horses with poor management and training, and those horses can behave in surprising ways when exposed to new lives. I’m glad you’re moving this horse along, OP, and hope you heed all of the safety-oriented advice on this thread. I, too, worry about your goal of the 1x a week ride, too. My 20-something off the track Standardbred spent 10 years racing and many more trail riding, and he is wise, well trained and awesome. The mailman almost backed his truck over us last week and he didn’t even blink, just begged for a cookie when the door opened. And yet, he can do a very good impression of a nutcase if not kept in work. I think it’s asking too much of 99% of horses to tolerate a weekly ride during which they are perfect and kind.
I expect our horses to sit 1-4 weeks and ride off and win a 50-100 mile ride. In fact I expect our horses to sit up to 6 months and ride right off.
Something is really wrong with your training if I horse cannot sit and ride off safely.
It is not the same horse means more than just training. It means left for more than 6 weeks it loses the muscle it had if it was in training. It has lost its fitness or something could have happened in the paddock like a grass seed in its mouth or been kicked by another horse or been stung by a bee.
You have to ride the horse you have in front of you today, not the one you rode last year, last month, last week or even last night.
An old trick I was taught and always found to be very effective is to lead the horse on a 12ft lead with my hand about 3ft from the halter, and hold the remainder of the lead in the other hand. You walk forward (in a straight line) at a steady pace suitable to the horse’s natural walk, and TWIRL the end of the rope in brisk vertical circles in front of you and the horse. If the horse tries to charge forward, it will get hit by the twirling rope, think it has been a bit stupid, and step back. Whatever happens, you keep twirling, and keep walking. It might take a stupid horse 3-4 times to realise that if it walks a bit more slowly, it won’t get hit in the face, but within 10 minutes you should have a horse that will lead politely.
And if it forgets again tomorrow, you simply start that ol’ rope a-twirling again.
And dare I say it: A Parelli level one clinic would get a lot sorted out, and give you skills to handle your horse, and others you might come across in the future.
wendy… what an interesting idea. I might seek out a clinic with the older mare that I now have. Me, in a Parelli clinic - people might think hell froze over, lol. But who knows, could happen!
first decide if you want and will work through these issues. If you want to work through this, my suggestion is to join Warwick Schiller Performance Horsemanship on FB, look at the free youtube vids and then subscribe to the full length videos site. He puts a really good handle on a horse, and his method is easy to follow. The trick, as with ALL programs, is to do it. Do each part until it is very very fluent and she moves off a suggestion. She is not ready to be ridden yet, so just do the ground work.
This horse sounds like she knows that she’s bigger and stronger than humans. Somewhere along the way, she “won” an argument and hasn’t forgotten it. IMO that is a point of no return – not worth the potential injuries that might result from trying to become her leader.
You’ve stated that this is not your first horse so I think you already knew the answer before you wrote your post. Sorry for your frustration. Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
[QUOTE=Guilherme;7963649]
One of the WORST aspects of the American horse scene is the failure, pretty much across the board, to lay good foundations when starting youngsters. Way too many are started in back yards by folks with just enough skill to get the horse to accept a saddle and rider. They call the horse “broke” (and it’s not) and place it into the stream of commerce where it’s the consequences of this failure to train the horse quickly become apparent. Few buyers take the time to “fill in the blanks” in prior training. This allows the Parellis and Roberts’ and Tellington-Jones’ of the world to make a lot of money hawing “snake oil” to deal with “problem horses” where what’s really necessary is to just restart the horse from the get go. This is now a more difficult process because the trainer is no longer working with a green horse but with a horse with lots of bad habits. IMO it also keeps a lot of slaughter buyers in business. It’s enough to make you weep.
G.[/QUOTE]
And this is why I am now looking for trail horse number four. I’ve been riding for 35 years and I don’t remember things being this bad back then. I also don’t remember hearing about these “natural horse” trainers. In lessons, no one talked about being your horse’s buddy, the rider was supposed to be in charge.
(I’m looking for a gaited trail horse and would consider a MM, if you have any for sale or know anyone who’s selling.)
I am going to be unpopular and say, I would sell or give the mare away. Unless you are a very good horse trainer OR want to go down a long road of trying to become one and train this mare and risk being hurt, that is what I would recommend.
I like the natural horse trainers and have tried to learn from them, BUT no matter how much I try, I will never have the timing that it takes to train this type of horse and I do not wish to be hurt. That is why some people discredit natural horse trainers, because people do not become experts from listening to them. Some do, but most do not. Yes, we become better horse people than we were, but not everyone can become an expert horse trainer to deal with a very challenging horse. Some horses just take a higher level of expertise.
I have never owned a horse like this and I do not want to. I am a breeder and I hire a NH ground trainer to work with my foals from birth. They all turned out respectful willing partners. I have watched the trainer train for years and I have tried to do the same, yet I am no where as good as she is. I can train after she has gotten them going, but getting them going is sometimes challenging and her timing is 50% better than mine. Just saying…
NO MORE RIDING! At least for now. You MUST get control on the ground with her before anyone is allowed to get on her back.
If you don’t already have access to a round pen, buy one, borrow one. If you are not familiar with join-up/follow-up, look into it. Lots of round-penning, respect building.
No more chain. It’s just not necessary. She is 1500+ lb animal. If she wants to run through a chain, she is going to do it. Chains work on horses who have already learned respect but sort of like to push the boundaries a little. If you can’t handle her w/o a chain, she needs to live in the round pen until you can.
Above all else, safety. I cannot stress this enough. No horse is worth dying over.
She is no longer riding the younger mare based on comments earlier in the thread.
Yes, I traded the young mare for her mother. Whom I adore. My name for her is Old Lady Who, and her ground manners are very good. She is a spunky ride for an old lady, but very manageable for me under saddle. She is happy living at my place, no longer runs from people, loves my other mare, life is much better. Thanks again to everyone for your help and feedback.
Glad things worked out for you!
