New hunter - afraid of water - suggestions?

[asb_own_me]

My 5 y/o ASB and I have just started hunting - first season for both of us. He is behaving beautifully, doesn’t mind the hounds, doesn’t worry about wildlife, doesn’t lose his mind galloping, stands quietly, etc.

He is TERRIFIED of water. Water, what once was water, what MAY have been water weeks ago…you get the idea. I know few horses truly don’t mind water, but I don’t have experience for this. My mare didn’t like stepping in it, so she’d jump it. Fine by me. But this boy just Stops. Stands square as can be and won’t budge. Doesn’t get upset, doesn’t offer to spin/buck/kick/rear/get stupid. Just Stops. I can kick, cluck, have another hunter push him, pull him, coax him…he will Not. Go. Near. Water.

He quakes in fear if you approach him with a sponge after a ride, and while he’s gotten to where he’ll tolerate it, he is truly terrified the entire time. And, I can’t fly spray him. If he needs fly spray, he has to have it wiped on. I’ve dealt with silly - and this is not silly. It goes way deeper. My 3 y/o was silly about sponging and fly spray. He’s long over it now. Only took a few times of reinforcing Whoa! This guy? Truly, horribly terrified.

I know this horse very well, and although I am a firm believer in motivational tools such as a whip or spurs, those are not for this horse. My mare? She thinks she might not want to whatever it is, she gets smacked soundly with the whip and decides she will indeed do whatever it is. For this guy, it’s not going to be how I will have to do things.

So…what can I do? How can I convince him he won’t die :eek: I just want to be able to get over these creeks and creek beds.

[twofatponies]

Most horses I’ve worked with the fear of stepping on weird surfaces (water, mud, boards, etc.) is different than the fear of hissing spraying things. They are both “water” to us, but two different experiences to the horse.

You could work on those two things separately at home. The bigger deal being that he walk on any surface you ask. Use a tarp on the ground or large puddles around the barnyard to practice that. With my food oriented mare I used small treats (cheerios, tiny pieces of carrot). Each step towards the tarp gets a pet and treat. Do not “soothe” or reward by petting or backing down if he steps away or back or sideways. Don’t get mad, just say “no, no” and keep a gentle pressure on the halter rope, no matter if he jiggles all around. But one step at all towards the tarp or puddle and you instantly pause, and praise him. You can walk onto the tarp or into the puddle yourself to “prove” it is safe.

Try to think of the attitude: He might be afraid, but you are his brave leader, and will show him that it is safe, and moreover that it is his job to trust your judgement and follow you wherever you go.

When I moved up to working under saddle, we worked on a small shallow pond on an eventing course, walking around the edge of it and slowly spiraling in, just asking her to walk in the water at the very edge first, then gradually deeper, then across it. It took patience! She wasn’t terrified, just not wanting to, so with your guy maybe other techniques would work better.

But maybe these ideas will help.

[TRNasty]

Sounds like your guy wasn’t treated nicely prior to his arrival with you re water and fly spray.

I know what has worked for me in the past with a green horse and water is to back him into the stream while I am on the ground and make them stand there until I tell them it is okay to come out. Though one greenie launched himself out when I said it was okay to move. Thank goodness I was standing to the side and he didn’t pounce on me.

Good luck with your boy.

[366474]

lead horse?

Do you have a solid lead horse?

[Nlevie]

I agree those are 2 separate issues, and really just basic training. It will be tough to complete a foxhunt without crossing water or mud at some point, so you need to go back to basics to work on it outside of the hunt field. I have always taught my horses to accept water being sprayed on them in the summer when it’s hot and it feels good to them, same thing with fly spray - I start with water in a spray bottle and spray near them and gradually get closer. . . As far as walking through it, you really need a good buddy with a steady horse who will go anywhere to give yours courage AND a good water crossing that’s wide enough they can’t jump it, but has a safe firm bottom (no sucky mud) and is shallow enough with an easy entry. You might have to do some research to find a good place to do this, but plan on making a day of it and gradually working up walking through quietly. There is no easy shortcut especially when he’s had this fear ingrained for a long time apparently. Good luck ! And glad you are having fun foxhunting. Usually in the hunt field they don’t want to be left behind, so will follow everyone else. . . ?

[asb_own_me]

@TRNasty;3565386

Sounds like your guy wasn’t treated nicely prior to his arrival with you re water and fly spray.

I can’t figure out if it’s that, or that he was never exposed to it.

He just came home from his first season of showing, and the grooms were super patient with him with the sponging/bathing. They just kept doing it slowly, slowly, slowly, at first with not much water and then slowly with more. He can do that now, but still doesn’t like it. They chose to baby him with the fly spray and just wiped it on! The barn he was at before, I honestly don’t think they ever bothered to bathe, sponge, or fly spray him :no:

I will work on different surfaces. Now that I think about it, he wasn’t real thrilled at two of the shows where there were black rubber mats in the chute to the show ring, but he went. I told my husband last night that I had an odd request - I said, “Can you make me a mud puddle?” He was :lol::lol::lol:

I haven’t owned him that long, and he spent the summer at his show barn, not with us at home. He’s a big cuddler, and I know he likes/trusts me. He nickers when he sees me coming We will just have to build on that around “horse-eating surfaces”!

[asb_own_me]

[QUOTE=Nlevie;3565484]
Usually in the hunt field they don’t want to be left behind, so will follow everyone else. . . ?[/QUOTE]

That’s what I was counting on…but nope! Apparently he’s quite happy enough to stay on his own rather than wet his tootsies :winkgrin:

[findeight]

Never have had the pleasure of Hunting but…

Showed in the Trail classes with Arabs and QHs and did most of my own work.

What you describe is not unusual. Probably somebody got upset with him back when and made it a much bigger deal then it needs to be, now he is programmed to react as he does. Not sure the sponge and fly spray are related to water per se…but the SOUND may be similar to splashing a foot in and that sets it off.

How to fix? Well, as was just asked, do you have a good lead horse? I had the best luck just letting another lead them…sort of shows them it is OK. I also had good luck putting the feed in a bucket where they had to step in water or on a tarp to get it and think this is one place clicker/conditioned response training can be effective. Need to get them to associate water with something pleasant-food-instead of whatever happened in the past and a big fat fight every time it comes up.

Some of them just are almost too careful where they put their feet and never do warm up to trusting you.

Not that big a fan of it but maybe a little pharmaceutical help to break that programmed response and allow reprogramming. I never needed to go to that but would not rule it out for safe, at home schooling sessions.

You need to avoid starting a fight over any of this, he is panicked enough…and that is the hard part when you need him to accept the water or sounds that remind him of it. Of all these, I’d try the clicker training route.

[wateryglen]

get some good boots!

Put on some good waterproof/mudproof boots and practice leading him thru water/mud obstables like mudpuddles, creeks, streams, pond edges, running water, still water. Don’t let him jump; ask for a slow, careful walk thru. Horses that learn to only jump water can panic and rip a tendon if the bank on the otherside is soft and they sink up to their knees and struggle to get out. Many times the water looks scary and when they’re young you need to let him sort it out and learn it’s not a big deal. LEt him sniff, snort but encourage him forward calmly with lots of reassurance. Use whatever methods you’ve used to get him by other scarey stuff.
Do not use the huntfield as your training time/place!. Not only is it bad manners to others out there with you but it’s too crazy for your horse to learn how to CALMLY handle the obstacle. No body wants to ride with someone with a panicky horse. You’re supposed to have done the needed training before you go hunting. Go trailriding with a calm, buddy. Or as others suggested; use a lead horse. Like most things with horses; it’s mileage, mileage, mileage! And if you’re not rushing him, he’ll learn to even stop and take a drink, cool off & relax in water!
Do you know somewhere where you can turn him out in a field with a stream in it? Where they drink from it or cross it to get to the barn? And I agree that walking across tarps might help. I find that once they get the first foot in; they’re good to go. It’s like they’re worrying how deep it is or something. I boarded once where a big puddle appeared after heavy rain where the horses had to leave the field to come in and they all didn’t hesitate doing puddles don’t ya know!!?!! :winkgrin:
I’ve always found a similarity to getting a horse to follow you onto a trailer is like following you across water. He needs to be a good follower!
Good luck!

[asb_own_me]

[QUOTE=findeight;3565493]

How to fix? Well, as was just asked, do you have a good lead horse? I had the best luck just letting another lead them…sort of shows them it is OK. [/QUOTE]

Sorry, I never did answer this. We tried crowding him, sandwiching him in between horses who were going, and he stopped. Two different folks tried taking his snaffle rein and basically pulling him along with their horse, and he stopped. They had to let go. He is VERY committed when he stops!

I will work with him here at home. I’ll get that mud puddle created and go to work with his favorite - peppermint salt water taffy. I think he would climb into a lion’s jaws for those

Edited to add - he has no problems loading into a trailer, hauls in company or by himself, no problem. Will stand quietly on the trailer for hours and hours if need be. Ask me how I know…trainer got flat tires on 10 hour trip to St. Louis a couple weeks back. Trip turned into 14 hours.

[findeight]

Crowding or sandwiching wont work, that just puts the squeeze on an already panicky one…I mean just allow him to follow another horse that he has been following around for awhile. You can pony him or just follow another rider on that horse…but NO panic, squeeze or rush. Most of them don’t like being left when they have been following a buddy and will rather face the water then being left alone.

One caution, don’t assume that just because he will wade across a puddle or stream to eat, he will allow himself to be ridden across water-they are smarter then that.

At some point after you have conditioned out the fear, you can press the obedience issues. But you can count on that cropping up.

[Bank_of_Dad]

First I taught mine to “pass”, meaning, on a 14 ft lead rope and a good rope training halter, do a semi-circle around me, reverse and go the other way. Then pass back and forth between me and the fence. Then I put an 8x4 piece of plywood down and they had to pass walking over that, pausing, and standing on it. If they wouldn’t go near it, I passed him several feet away and gradually got closer until he walked to it. One foot on and I backed him off. Several times, then two feet on, back him off, then 3 or 4 feet on and backed him off. Finally walked across.
I used this technique for everything from trailer loading to walking on tarps, to walking thru mud puddles, and finally walking into water. I made a hole in the dirt, put the tarp on top, filled it with water and made a water crossing. I did it with puddles on the trail, and that’s how I got him into a stream.
Many years ago I tried the backing into a stream, even blindfolded the mare. I got her across, but she never ever was comfortable on that particular stream. I think its too easy to get hurt doing that.
Also think treats while you spray a bottle, first far from him, then getting closer, releasing the pressure of the spraying for a few moments. Let him eat alfalfa while you spray. I got mine sort of used to the dreaded bicycle by letting him eat alfalfa off of it. Many times.

[asanders]

Find someone of the likely 18-25 year-old has no fear of death and rides anything variety. Send them out on the horse with one other solid trooper. You stay home. Tell them not to come back to the barn until they work it out.

Honestly.

I have fixed a couple like this. You can’t drag them or push them into it. The other horse won’t matter (as far as the water goes), they are just backdrop of genral safety. You have to ride them into it (whatever direction works) and you have to be sure you can stay on if they sit down, shiver to pieces, explode, or otherwise self destruct. If they do it in the water, and you can keep them there, they WILL calm down, and then it is all praise and roses. Getting in the water and staying there is important, not getting through it. You go on with the ride and repeat the water thing several times. No matter how well you ride, this can be difficult to do when you ‘know the horse very well’.

[SmartAlex]

I’m dealing with a fear of falling (and particularly uneven muddy footing) with my horse. He actually did fall in the mud once, and got hurt, so he is verrrRrrry suspicious of uneven footing. I think some wading is in your future.

With Grey, I have recently established that
A.) I won’t ask him to walk on unsafe footing. (So be sure there are no bottomless puddles or you’ll lose credibility)

B.) When I say we’re going in there, I mean we’re going in there. Today. Maybe not this instant, but definetly before we go home. (That means that if I get in a pickle, I have to get off and lead him through it. There is no going around and there is no giving up.)

[asb_own_me]

I am not afraid of what this horse might do. In fact, the issue here is almost opposite. He just Stops. No fussing, no fidgeting, no hopping, just a dead stop. All four feet committed to staying in place. Even if he were to act like a wild man, which he is NOT, I’m not worried about coming off. My mare is the lunatic in the family

I did dismount and try to lead him over one of the streams in question. All his buddies were already on the other side, and he looked at me like I was the one who was nuts. Think along the lines of, “Mom? Why are you closer to the stream? Water is very bad. You should get out of there. I’m going to stand here and prove to you that I am making the right decision by NOT going in there!”

I won’t be sending him with anyone else to “fix” him. I’m confident enough in my riding abilities that I know my riding is not the issue. He’s got a major problem with water and we need to work it out together.

I appreciate all of the tips and tricks everyone’s shared. Thanks to the bucketloads of rain yesterday, I’ve got a few puddles by the pasture gate. I’ll have to make good use of them before they dry up!

[Lifting_Chickk]

My mare was exactly like that at that age. She would not get upset, but regardless of my whip, spurs, kick, squeeze, voice…she just wouldn’t budge at a water crossing.

She has since gotten over her aversion to getting her feet wet and now, at 7 years old, will go in, through or over just about any type of water crossing.

My advice to you is simple but not necessarily easy.

Be patient. Don’t get frustrated.
Try your best to be sympathetic to the emotions your horse is feeling.

Be persistent. Make playing in water with your horse a top priority. Ride out to water and with no time constraints, stand near it. Let him sniff it, encourage him to focus on it. If he likes grooming, give him scratches near it. Eventually, encourage him to play in it with his nose, hooves…etc. Get in the water with him. (wear high boots so you don’t get wet)

If you focus on this enough, without the pressure of having to cross in a timely manner, hopefully your guy will learn that water/mud/stream beds are not going to suck him into oblivion.

It worked for my mare…lots and lots of patience and finding every water crossing we possibly could.

We once stood at a stream for 20 minutes. Squeeze, kick, whip, voice…no reaction. I eventually dismounted and crossed with her. She was willing to follow me over, but was not comfortable to lead over what she considered to be a life threatening danger. After that incident, we spent every minute working in water. We even went to the beach and played in the ocean…

…she now hunts and doesn’t bat an eye at the footing, whatever it may be.

Each horse is different. You need to get inside his head and learn why he feels the water isn’t safe…your job is to show him it’s ok.

Simple, but by no means easy! Good luck!

[asb_own_me]

Thank you! You described exactly what I get from him - no reaction! Your method of dealing with it sounds like the approach I need to take with him. No amount of bullying would do it with him. I need to make him feel like we’re going at it together.

[asanders]

asb_own_me, I’m sorry you got the impression I was implying that you couldn’t handle the horse or the reaction. This was absolutely not what I meant. I’m sure you are quite capable, and I don’t think you need to send him out for fixing… however, I still stand by my suggestion (the references to rider qualifications were more to the point that I wouldn’t just send any OK rider for this, not that you couldn’t ride)

I know exactly what you mean when you describe the rooted feet response. Consider the comment about the horse thinking “mom, why are you going near the water??? (I’ll keep you safe here, dispite your obvious lack of appreciation for the seriousness of the danger…)” Sometimes it just helps get past that reaction if it is someone on board who has no real history with the horse; everybody (horse and rider) is just there to do a job.

I will say that I absolutely never, unless on pain of certain death, think that getting off and leading is the method of choice. I expect to have more control over a horse I am on than one I am leading (perhaps unless they are unbroke), or we (the horse and I) need to have a come to Jesus about what rider instruction means. I expect respect (yes earned, of course, but pretty much absolute), which means horsey trust me and go where I say. They are not stupid, and if they have seen another horse and rider cross safely, you wading through on foot really shouldn’t increase their confidence.

Spending as much time around water where getting in is not mandatory or even asked for may help.

[SmartAlex]

I was thinking about this last night because it is basically the same problem I have with Grey. We’ve gotten so we can hack around the fields without a big to-do. Heaven forbid I take him hilltopping and encounter a muddy stream crossing :eek:

I’m sure that your thought of his being afraid of “Water, what once was water, what MAY have been water weeks ago…” while particularly amusing is probably just your trying to assign a common thread to his issues. He’s unsure of new situations that he feels are potentially dangerous. Water, mud, fly spray, sponge baths etc. I got Grey at TSE when he was 2 and while he was very kind and sensible, he was underexposed. So we had to deal with things that don’t come up on a daily basis. Baths, fly spray, clipping, farrier, loading. Each time you encounter an issue that slows you down, you devote a lot of time to it and make it part of their daily routine until they get desensitised to it. Three years later, the farrier has less trouble (mess with feet daily) the fly spray is no big deal (spray many times daily) clipping not a big deal (practically wore out a set of clippers clipping weekly) baths are OK (lots of fun getting past that).

Like your horse, Grey is a leg planter. He locks up and won’t be moved. Whip him if you like, he’ll take it like a man, but he ain’t movin’. I had to get past the initial hurdle by leading him through bad spots and gaining his trust from the ground (where he sees me most of the time) and then slowly transferring it to trust in me when I’m mounted… It takes awhile, but you will get it.

[asanders]

OK, reading SA’s reponse made me think more about my own.

I have been given the chore of dealing with some particular ‘issues’ a horse may have. I have found that if I proceed with absolute confidence, and simply ‘expect’ the horse to trust my judgement, even when they don’t know me, and don’t do XYZ for their own rider, they may not do it right away, but they WILL do XYZ for me, and once they get over the hurdle, will do it again for me with much less irrational behavior.

OTOH, the horse’s response to a given situation is a combination of level of trust in the rider, and level of fear about XYZ. Even if trust, is high, serious fear can leave you with planted feet by the stream. (Of course, some a horses may have very little real trust in the rider, but not be afraid of XYZ --horsey trips merrily accross --not really best case, but it works, I guess).

In this equation, you can acheive the required level of trust, by A) expecting it, and/or B) working hard for it. You get past the fear by C) slow methodical de-sensitization, and/or D) Getting the horse to do XYZ, despite their fear.

Depending on the relationship you have developed over time with a horse, you may limit your access to (D). Someone with no relationship with the horse obviously has limited access to (B) and ©. But there is not necessarily one formula for success.