New Idea from the USDF - Schooling Show Regional Rankings/Awards

[hoopoe]

@JenEM

Actually, they don’t. I just looked on the Rankings & Results page, and National points aren’t available for straight Dressage, only Western Dressage. It looks like they’re done via USDF, and are average percentage. Not sure why other breed/discipline National HOTY awards are via USEF and Dressage does them themselves, and not even linked to USEF like Zone awards are for USHJA. Makes it incredibly confusing to look things up!

yes someone else up page said they did and as far as I remember that went the way of AHSA and the west coast / east coast dressage champs in about 1987

[ladyj79]

@x-halt-salute

I don’t go to schooling shows anymore, as the ones that are available to me tend to be judged only by the usual L grads and get the bulk of their entries in Intro and TL (last one I volunteered at had 2 rides in 1st level and 1 ride in 2nd). So right away it’s clear to me that the intent isn’t to create a second tier, lower cost showing option that would make a place for the riders who want to advance in the sport without the means to do tons of recognized showing.

Given that it’s only meant to further reward riders who already have a local schooling show option that works for them, the problem I see with this proposal is that I can imagine that some regions will have an apples-to-oranges problem when comparing scores earned at various schooling shows in different parts of the region. I’ve recently lived both in areas where there are excellent, well-subscribed schooling shows that provide licensed judges, quality facilities, and decent competition, and areas where schooling shows are all small and informal, invariably judged by less experienced L grads, and cater to Intro-TL and riders from other disciplines who want to dabble in dressage (no judgment implied here – that’s part of what schooling shows are for). I’ve scribed at schooling shows on both ends of the spectrum. They aren’t always comparable, either in terms of the show experience they provide or the judging/scoring.

For the competitor who goes to the schooling shows that hire licensed judges and have serious competition at their level, is it really meaningful to have your scores compared to someone on the other side of the region who’s getting wildly inflated scores from an inexperienced L grad in a class of one? If there are already year-end awards in your GMO or for the well-run, well-judged schooling shows you attend, are you really going to want to pay extra to have your scores compared to the rest of your region? And if I’m the budget-conscious rider on a humble little horse at a small schooling show do I really expect my scores to fall into the top 10, when more dressagey areas have fancier horses schooling the same level at schooling shows? Maybe in some regions it will be meaningful, but for those that have a center of gravity for dressage that produces different shows than you find in their vast dressage-sparse hinterlands I’m not so sure region-level awards make a ton of sense.

From what I believe an early posted said usdf would insist on particular judges, facilities, etc. Because it’s a money and control grab.

[ladyj79]

Here’s the earlier post with the super secret insider info

@lorilu

What I like about it is that it is totally voluntary - if the competitor wants to participate, they can. Hopefully the proposal will be changed to put all the financial and paperwork responsibility on the competitor who wants to participate.
As it stands right now, the proposal calls for a $25 fee per show from the show organizer to “recognize” the show (for lack of a better term) and results to be sent to USDF who will calculate awards. There was strong resistance to this by the Regions and some on the GMO Council, and I know Region 3 meeting members suggested the cost be borne solely by the competitor who wants to participate in the program - paying fees to participate and sending in scores like the Arabian Horse club and others do. THis ensures that competitors who do not want to participate for whatever reason are not forced to pay - because you know organizers will have to pass that $25 fee per show along.

Ask your GMO officials for more info. It is an active topic on the GMO Officials FB page. I am uncomfortable sharing it here without asking first…
But here are some Details:
L grad or higher for judge
Sufficient arena
Rider has GM membership at minimum
Owner has minimum non-member number
Horse has minimum USDF HID number (I believe these are free…)
And then there are nomination fees etc.
Intro: 5 scores/three judges/three competitions
TL-4th Minimum 5 scores/three judges/ three competitions/one from test 3
FEI 3 scores/three competitions/three judges

Up to 10 placings per level per Region. Has noting to do with “national rankings”

The proposal is headed by Lisa Gorretta, incoming USDF President, outgoing VP.

It will be voted on at the BOG next year as part of the budget.

[x-halt-salute]

@ladyj79

From what I believe an early posted said usdf would insist on particular judges, facilities, etc. Because it’s a money and control grab.

Indeed.

If you take the idea of schooling shows as a low-cost analogue to recognized showing seriously it creates a bit of a catch-22. If you regulate judges, facilities, etc. it gets expensive and local organizers no longer have the freedom to do what suits their populations, but you may create meaningful regional competition (the proof of whether that does much for the “grassroots” rider would be in the pudding). If you don’t regulate, you don’t really have a meaningful class of shows to compare across, since “schooling show” means very different things in different places – there will be people who chase the ribbon (or more likely the print-yourself certificate) but those of us who currently fall through the cracks between schooling and recognized shows will continue to drift away.

I suspect that in many of the places where schooling shows really can serve as a second-tier showing experience for a wide range of riders there are already GMO or show series awards in place that are more meaningful than this particular flavor of regional competition would be.

[lorilu]

Nothing “super secret” about what I posted. The info was passed around at the convention . I was uncomfortable sharing the image of the sheet we saw at the convention because it is PROPOSED and too many folks here do not know what that word means.
And negative comments about “regulating judges and arenas” I really do not understand. WHy would you want to show in front of the local barn manager who has had NO formal judge education? WHy would you be willing to show on a lumpy grass arena with poles on the ground delineating the arena? WHy bother getting an opinion (and paying for it!) from someone who does not ahve the correct methodology to adequately score you? And why place your horse in a hazardous situation?

I would say that if you are willing to “show” under those circumstances you certainly are chasing ribbons. And don’t give me the BS about “getting your horse out into a new situation”. Take your horse to a clinic at a different farm. Hell, take him to a local Open show! He will certainly get experience with all sorts of distractions!

[ladyj79]

:rolleyes:

[Manni01]

@lorilu

Nothing “super secret” about what I posted. The info was passed around at the convention . I was uncomfortable sharing the image of the sheet we saw at the convention because it is PROPOSED and too many folks here do not know what that word means.
And negative comments about “regulating judges and arenas” I really do not understand. WHy would you want to show in front of the local barn manager who has had NO formal judge education? WHy would you be willing to show on a lumpy grass arena with poles on the ground delineating the arena? WHy bother getting an opinion (and paying for it!) from someone who does not ahve the correct methodology to adequately score you? And why place your horse in a hazardous situation?

I would say that if you are willing to “show” under those circumstances you certainly are chasing ribbons. And don’t give me the BS about “getting your horse out into a new situation”. Take your horse to a clinic at a different farm. Hell, take him to a local Open show! He will certainly get experience with all sorts of distractions!

Wow I am impressed that you even bother to post here with all these people here who don’t even know the word proposed… what else don’t they know in your opinion?

And if the info was passed around at the convention I wonder even more that you can’t post it here? Are only people attending the convention allowed to have full information??

[Halt_Near_X]

@lorilu

And negative comments about “regulating judges and arenas” I really do not understand. WHy would you want to show in front of the local barn manager who has had NO formal judge education? WHy would you be willing to show on a lumpy grass arena with poles on the ground delineating the arena? WHy bother getting an opinion (and paying for it!) from someone who does not ahve the correct methodology to adequately score you? And why place your horse in a hazardous situation?

Because it’s fun.

[pluvinel]

@Halt Near X

Because it’s fun.

These are very important words. “Because it’s fun”…that is why a lot of people show.

Make showing “Not fun”…and you take away the reason for showing…unless you’re chasing points/ribbons…which is ok, but I believe makes up the minority of people who show.

[Mardi]

@kcmel

Not necessarily. A lot of people can’t afford to do a lot of rated shows. I can do about 3 schooling shows for the cost of 1 rated show at the same local venue. So if you show just for fun at the lower levels, and have good local schooling show series with competent judges, many don’t have the desire to do rated shows, or maybe only do one every year or 2.

I think this is especially true for those of us who have less fancy (i.e., affordable) horses–those 6 movers we were discussing in the other thread.

There’s definitely a need and desire for non-rated shows. Those with their own rules (or borrowed from USEF/USDF) and trophies, ribbons, and local end of year awards. They’re fun and low key.

There is also a need and desire for schooling shows. No rankings, no EOY.

We can have BOTH kinds of shows.

[js]

@lorilu

………
And negative comments about “regulating judges and arenas” I really do not understand. WHy would you want to show in front of the local barn manager who has had NO formal judge education? WHy would you be willing to show on a lumpy grass arena with poles on the ground delineating the arena? WHy bother getting an opinion (and paying for it!) from someone who does not ahve the correct methodology to adequately score you? And why place your horse in a hazardous situation?

I would say that if you are willing to “show” under those circumstances you certainly are chasing ribbons. And don’t give me the BS about “getting your horse out into a new situation”. Take your horse to a clinic at a different farm. Hell, take him to a local Open show! He will certainly get experience with all sorts of distractions!

I’ve seen plenty of rated shows that were on bad footing, lumpy grass and horses tripping constantly. What’s the point of rated judges if they don’t follow the correct judging guidelines? If big fancy movements are the only correct thing being judged how is that better?

I’ve seen plenty of unrated people, whether they be BO’s, BM’s or local trainers etc. that did a great job at local shows because they didn’t care what breed was being shown or how fancy the gaits. They followed the rules, if at least basically, nothing made up.

Some people just want the opportunity to go to a low key, fun show and maybe win a ribbon. Do the best they can with what they’ve got in front of a judge that will judge them just that.

[kcmel]

@Mardi

There’s definitely a need and desire for non-rated shows. Those with their own rules (or borrowed from USEF/USDF) and trophies, ribbons, and local end of year awards. They’re fun and low key.

There is also a need and desire for schooling shows. No rankings, no EOY.

We can have BOTH kinds of shows.

Around here (for the most part) there is no difference. Most schooling shows count towards GMO EOY awards. Some series do have their own EOY awards, and you may have to pay a small one-time fee to be eligible. A few shows offer high point division champs, but more are moving to the Danish scoring system so there is flexibility in scheduling times and you collect your scores sheets and ribbons without having to wait for a division to end. The entry fees are about the same. Some people braid and dress for the schooling shows, but most don’t.

There is one eventing venue that puts on more of a “schooling” schooling event with no ribbons, you schedule your times online, and they run a large and small ring at the same time. I think the cost is about the same. I like this concept as I have enough yellow ribbons lol!

[lorilu]

@Manni01

Wow I am impressed that you even bother to post here with all these people here who don’t even know the word proposed… what else don’t they know in your opinion?

And if the info was passed around at the convention I wonder even more that you can’t post it here? Are only people attending the convention allowed to have full information??

I choose to post here because someone has to tell the facts and not get lost in supposition and “predictive text” sort of things.
I choose not to post the photos of the proposal because I did not take the photo of the proposal; if I had, I would post it here. It was shared on the GMO Officials facebook page. Ask your GMO official who represents you on the facebook page to tell you what was in it. My review of it (posted far above) left nothing out.

Do not conflate this PROPOSAL with the poorly designed and badly accomplished MFS rule.

My prediction is that the proposal goes nowhere. But you all are welcome to vent your displeasure at any idea that comes out of USDF, while not being willing to implement any of the changes that “wonderful” Europe does that seems to keep them at the top of the world.

ANd while I am at it, if you watched the MFS livestream from last night at Wellington, the first ride was, IMO, the perfect example of a horse who was overfaced by the technicality of the design.

[pluvinel]

@lorilu

…

ANd while I am at it, if you watched the MFS livestream from last night at Wellington, the first ride was, IMO, the perfect example of a horse who was overfaced by the technicality of the design.

I did not watch the MFS. Out of curiosity, if it was that bad, how did the judges score it?

[yaya]

Going by times and results on Fox Village, the first ride was an Amateur, scored 64.650. The other 4 riders were Open, scoring 75.370 to 83.220 (Laura Graves).

The amateur’s horse has been ridden internationally for both Sweden and Canada.