We’re not hiding anything, we’re just overwhelmed with what’s going on at the moment. I’m on the phone for about 16 hours every day, no joke. Serious question: Do you think the education, training and qualifications of judges at USDF is good?
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I think I have a sense of what is expected by those judges, at least at the lower levels (disclaimer: I am primarily an eventer so when I cross over into the dressage ring, it is at the lower levels of that sport). This is in part because I have some sense of their background and training.
There is of course, variation between judges in their preferences. And I think there are serious concerns about what is rewarded at the highest levels of dressage, not just by USDF judges but perhaps even more so by FEI officials.
But to the point of this conversation, I think that I have a better sense of what is expected and what will be rewarded entering a USEA or USDF competition than I would entering one of your competitions, and I do think that more information about the background of the people involved would help make the expectations more clear. As I said before, I’m not concerned that you haven’t provided that information so far. I’m merely pointing out that I think it is relevant. (I asked in my first comment on this thread about how you would choose judges for your initial shows since your rulebook suggests that they will be credentialed through your own clinics, but presumably, those will not have happened by the time of the first chose you have scheduled. I’m curious about why you chose to answer some of my other questions but not that one.)
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But the way of judging is tolerated or even encouraged by USEF. And USEF writes the rules. All of the points mentioned above are within the rules. We’re not talking about some shady people hiding their syringes and ear plugs in the tack stall. The sport, the kids and ESPECIALLY the horses deserve so much better than that.
As far as the judging goes: All of our judges are absolute specialists in their disciplines, lots of them with a European background (no, not because we think Europeans are better, because they are very familiar with the system and the judging in Europe and since our concept is European based it just fits very well). Of course we will also post a list of judges but we still didn’t even open up the first show for enrollment, so give us some time please 
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The judging itself is very similar to Dressage tests you see at FEI shows, a good shoulder in is always a good shoulder in, so the expectations are the same, but the European judges are familiar with our decimal scoring which applies to all lower level tests and style jumping classes, which is something that’s kind of new to the US.
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@Mounted. I’m not picking your post apart I just would like clarification by what you mean - I think I have a better sense of what is expected and what will be rewarded entering a USEA or USDF competition.
Aren’t the rules for dressage the same everywhere? If you follow each test the directives are clear. Am I missing something? (I’m not being a pill, I don’t understand what expectations would be different. I’ve only done limited showing at recognized events)
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Indeed. I am particularly curious about the judging of the style component of the jumping classes, since there American and European styles can be quite different (and each have their purpose and strength, but someone entering or taking young students to a judged competition should have the relevant information about the expected standard).
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Fair.
UDJC Rule Book:
ARTICLE 307 STYLE CLASSES (S)
Judging criteria:
In style classes (S), the performance of the rider is expressed in a score from
0 to 10 (decimal judging). The score is based on
- Position of the rider
- Rhythm and flow
- Effectiveness of aids
- Suppleness of the horse
- Observance of the correct lines
- Harmonious accomplishment of the tasks
- Overall impression of the ride
Rails, time errors or refusals will be deducted from the score as penalty points.
Time is not a factor in a style class as long as the rider does not exceed the maximum time.
Find out more about the allowed time per class in chapter 5.
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The tests list the directives. They even assign a word to each numeric score. But it is up to the judges, drawing on their training and experience and inevitably preferences, to determine whether the movement you performed was a 6 or a 6.5 or a 7 (or a 2 or a 9, but you get the point). I have a better sense of how a judge at a USEA or USDF show would assign a score to a movement than I do how a judge at this new show would assign a score to a test or to the style portion of a jumping class.
Yes — I read that and again, I really like the concept. But, for example, what is the benchmark for rider’s position? As I said before, that is taught somewhat differently in American and European systems. Competitors should know what the judges consider an excellent position, and knowing something about the judges, provides some information about what the standards are likely to be. That’s all I’m saying. (USEA and I believe USDF provide videos of new tests with commentary to help riders understand what is expected. Perhaps eventually, you will be able to do something similar for this show series.)
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Yes, not only will we do that, but we’ll publish a complete curriculum as a hand book for trainers and riders. The style does not vary as much as you might think it does. Kent Farrington and and Ludger Beerbaum would both receive a 9.9 in our little 80cm style jumping class
Yes, the American style of riding, especially in lower levels is a bit “lighter” in the seat and a bit less connected if you want to call it that but that’s neither right nor wrong.
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Hunters are not allowed to be drugged any more or less than any other division at a USEF show (excluding FEI). Are more of them drugged to achieve a calm look than are jumpers or dressage horses? Most likely. But, jumpers clearly receive medications (see Chromatic). There is a perception that some of the other disciplines have different USEF drug rules. As an example, years ago a dressage trainer friend sent a hunter trainer friend a horse to sell. The hunter trainer asked for a set of medications (bute, maybe robaxin, maybe even some dex since it was awhile ago). Dressage trainer stated that they would never be able to use those. Nope. USEF drug rules are the same for dressage and hunters. FEI is a clearly a different story.
Ear plugs are allowed in jumpers. No need to hide them.
Based on the back of the USEF magazine, people are getting fined and set down for drug violations. Are all the violators getting penalized? No. But they’re definitely out there testing.
While it is true that technically anyone can enter, say, a 1.4-m jumper class and that there is not the same system that there is in Europe where you have to get points/clear rounds in order to move up, there are some classes that require qualification. So it’s not “no” classes. And you can’t ride in anything you want, because there are cross entry restrictions.
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It does matter - a person who avoids inspection is immediately suspect. For instance someone who talks up their vast experience, but has actually only taken part in 2 youth FEI championships is somewhat doubtful.
https://data.fei.org/Person/Performance.aspx?p=3F0E20F48C2F552433599A7354CCFC2F
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I think the desire to see credentials is so less personal and more a reflection of the environment we’re in today: sooooo many sellers of snake oil out there. Anyone can hang a shingle, call themselves a “trainer,” and make a lot of noise on social media. AI and the internet are just making it easier and easier to obfuscate facts out there.
Those who have been burned in the past in equestrian sport or otherwise (myself included) are much, much more likely to approach someone/something we don’t know with a healthy dose of dubiousness until we can research them.
If you’re able to provide that research upfront (in this case, your credentials, background, etc), it makes it easier for the general interested party to go through it, decide if it’s credible, and hopefully be invested!
I for one am interested in how this pan out. But I also want to be invested in whomever is responsible for executing this!
There’s a show facility near me that’s gorgeous. Real quality. But lordy former management back-in-the-day just couldn’t get it together, and that poor management made the facility almost unusable. I am much more cognizant at looking at who is running shows these days to understand if I can rely on them to do the right things (like keeping rings dragged; delaying starts if too hot/too cold–generally just doing right by the horses).
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I think we are missing the forest for the trees.
USEF/USHJA do not provide affordable competitions for people developing young horses. I produced 2 jumpers through USEF/USHJA and it cost a fortune between show and nominating fees. Schooling shows were not an option as courses and jumps were at best dumbed down (you couldn’t find a 1.2 meter course) and at worst unsafe. Breeders in this country are begging for shows like this because they cannot compete price wise with European breeders who do have access to such shows. I imported two horses and they were both more than a little feral. I much prefer to purchase from breeders in this cointry. At the very least they know the language and I am only half joking about that. Good thing I remembered some German from high school because my Holsteiner gelding responded to schoene pferde!
I think that we can all profit from this concept and I am more than willing to see how this turns out. As I said before I judge for a person running unrecognized shows and as soon as we get past the holidays (she is a big Christmas person) I will forward her the contact info and see if we can get something started up.
This a different concept to compet
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Thanks!! I love it
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What do you have in place to protect children from people who are sanctioned/suspended from USEF and/or Safesport or is this where all the people who aren’t allowed to attend those shows are going to go? This could be a more affordable addition to the competition circuit but I would be concerned its going to atttact the wrong people. If protections are put in place to ensure safety of minors, that could be prevented. USEF is far from perfect but at least they are required to ensure the rapidly growing list of abusers are not allowed to be at their competitions in any capacity.
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How are you combating the horse drugging issues in the new organization you propose?
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This is pretty flakey;
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Any updates on when the first UDJC show will be?
What do you mean?
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